Tragickal Unconsciousness
The following is an excerpt from an msn conversation I had with Oolon this morning. My apologies to Cory if he is in any way offended by this. You are also more than capable of sticking up for yourself, I know. I think it clarifies a few things. A very good example of what I was saying in my last comment. I also think that the remark of Cory's that Oolon quotes here was kind of funny, and not bitchy at all, for the record. I also want to say that he is the absolute most open minded real Christian I have ever met, and he is a great example of integrity in that he is faithful to his convictions but willing to learn and grow.
Oolon is a great Wizard in some very real ways, and his influence has been key to my development. I value everyones input, and want us all to be friends!
Plus I said some clever stuff during it and thats the first clever stuff I have written all week. More to follow, I hope.
m:
you and cory are having quite the lively argument
o:
yeah...i like strixy...he's funny...i like your xian too..he's funny in a different way
m:
yes he sure is
o:
yeah...i didnt intend for the conversation with cory to take a turn of personal attack...but it seems that is how he took my statements
m:
you did seem pretty attacking at points actually
o:
to xiananity in general
m:
i commented on it all
o:
well and my last comment on him leaving
o:
i am writing a response now..but trying to turn it more back to the topic of 'magickal consciousness'
m:
i would like things to stay in the realm of civilized debate
o:
i would also...i have not become uncivilized in this....i am the 'mean' one
o:
alot of my comments are alot less earnest than they appear
m:
yes well there is cutting wit and then there is bitchiness
o:
cory has been a bit bitchy
m:
cory has been a bit defensive
m:
as well he might
o:
"can at least give you the lesser victory of appearing smarter than I am when you admire yourself in the mirror. That's gotta' count for something, right? "
m:
he has not attacked magic or paganism ever
m:
it is not constructive
o:
but whatever..i am sneering on xianity...i have no choice..it is an awful blasphemy
o:
and i am stirring up shit like you asked
o:
and its true about religious people being delusional
m:
yes it certainly is
m:
and the real point that i want to get at is that EVERY religion is a fabrication
o:
that is my point too!!!!!
m:
including paganism, quabbalah, ceremonial magick
o:
or one i was going to get at
m:
its all a bunch of made up shit that has grown up around the truth like vines
o:
its not entirely fictional..the fables and myths perhaps....but the observations on spiritual human condition is valid
m:
mimicking the shape, but not succeeding in expressing the reality
o:
i agree
m:
all religion is valid for the same reasons
m:
and so, if we can see past our own particular brand preference, which is all individual beliefs are, we can se the underlying truth in it all
o:
its not individual in the nature of religious context however
o:
if i say 'i am "(insert religion)"
o:
i must by sypathy to that brand of faith believe in its view of spiritual reality only
m:
not neccesarily at all
m:
what specific ideas do you see me clinging to?
m:
before i met cory i was the most religiospiritual person i knew
o:
hmm..the reality of greater spiritual reality...but i consider you a pragmatist...which reduces my scepticism
m:
well i am and i incorporate from everywhere. i dismiss nothing
o:
yes only if it has a function!
m:
everything has a function
o:
mmm...yeah...but that function can be positive or negative....and either does have its place...but truly believing in some guy rising after 3 days of stinking up a cave is not a pragmatic function
m:
it can be
o:
i'm a pragmatist too....and i believe that function should have practical use
m:
as much as believing that odin survived or that osiris got put back together again. its about the psychic response to the archetypal thought
m:
literal belief in things is not uncommon. your beliefs, for example, must be very literal or you would not insist so on precise form and detailed ceremony. you would not insist that every word and gesture must be correct (in ritual)
o:
true
m:
you would not spend so much time researching SYSTEMS, you would simply be guided by spirit as seemed best at the time, as i am because my beliefs are not literal
m:
and i do not invalidate literal belief by that, i only dont see it as very practical. but that is why in my comment i suggested that we all examine our own beliefs objectively and examine ourselves,because your religion has put blinders on you too, and from that position, you dont have much impunity for calling others down
o:
i have no 'religion'
m:
not so, you just dont call it religion. you are a strict devotee of hermes, whether you think of that literally or not. you are very dogmatic and often quite inflexible
o:
there is no faith i ascribe too....i am a thelemite but that doesnt imply religious praxis
m:
again, you have built yourself a framework that you do not often stray from and often cannot see past. argue if you want, but also look deeper
o:
no i get what your saying and it is true. everyone has their own filters, but some are developed by individual exploration , pragmatic and skeptical analysis.... others are taught by clergy and are limited to a single religious treatise, and some a little of both
m:
yes but the former are just as harmful when they become a cage for awareness instead of a vehicle for progress. when you hit the point where you stop developing and start judging instead, you are as bad as the most sheepheaded xian. you never know everything, and each perspective has the potential of enriching ones awareness if we listen respectfully and objectively, and dont provoke people until thay are no longer comfortable speaking
o:
perhaps to some lesser of greater degree....but often in the lesser degree it is involuntary on behalf of the speaker. i was not trying to make him uncomfortable
m:
you were a bit lashing
o:
and i am not sure what he is talking about the 'clergy insult'
m:
it semed you were
m:
or trying to mask your own discomfort
o:
i insulted no clergy explicitly..perhaps inplicit in my religious scorn but certainly i made no direct insult of clergy
o:
nephillim did
m:
well perhaps he was addressing her then
m:
may i have your permission to publish this conversation? somewhat edited of course
o:
depends...could i see what you are going to publish before you do?
m:
sure. i just think that we have had some interesting talk today
o:
i agree
m:
and i would like to share it
m:
and i think that would go a long way toward promoting intertribal understanding as it were
o:
sure..thats great!
posted by idnami @ 12:49 PM
30 Comments:
Mandi's xian-
I apologize if my commentary towards clergy came across the wrong way, perhaps then I should clarify my position a little...
Actually, I too am clergy...tho I haven't gone to any elaborate school to learn about it, and it is not exactly christian...
Rather, something imposed upon myself by the beliefs of my followers in conjunction with the magick, ritual and prayers that I work.
I am more of a free floater and thinker, who believes I speak directly with the divine, and do and go where I am needed...for whatever reasons.
Obviously you are more schooled then I, and I have looked into going for the more formal training to which you pursue, however, I tend more often to get thrown out of churches, and even witches circles as a heretic...then embraced and offered their teachings....so I do respect you for that.
In that point I admire and respect Christ, as he reminds me of what true heresy is and stands for...refusing to let your truth be smeared by others dogmas and political agendas....
Sneering neopaganism, is something I relish as well...haha, as I haven't met many thinking neopagans either, perhaps a few...but even the ones I thought had minds, recently threw me out of their circle for my heretic attitudes and siding with oolon in beliefs...so you see I am kinda a misfit everywhere.
I respect clergy...or the more open minded ones as equals, I just don't mince words with what we do.
We are neccessary for guidance of ppl who refuse to think for themselves, and want someone else to do all of their saving for them.
When running a circle, a church, a ceremony, or whatever you call it, you ARE in charge of directing, or channelling group will to the various purposes it is going to. People are sacrificing their individual Will and Power, to you to direct it for them.
What you do with it is up to you.
Some abuse this position, some do not.
Actually, although a few select men at the top, often have, and do make decisions that are harmful to the body of humanity, and tho, I do not much particularly like what became of the christian world, once each and every other religious belief was forcefully killed off or converted, much of the problem I believe, lies more to do with the followers then the men or women who sit at the top...
When speaking of these ppl, I remember the statement "absolute power corrupts absolutely"
And realize, that I am excluding the "few good men" from the generalized stereotyping I am doing.
I am willing to bet you are one of those "few good men" else M wouldn't be dating you, and again I apologize for any insult I may have laid....
Nonetheless, there is no denying the sins of the "fathers" who run the church, and no denying of the dogmatic and prejudicial suffering that happens to those who fall into this category....
WE just recently went through a massive child protection hearing, where they tried to nail us to the wall with any stupid little thing they could find...because they believed we were evil satanist trying to convert our children...
And the home they put them into, was a home of religious zealots, where our children were taken to see the priest alone, and had little rituals done on them to drive the devil out.
My daughter came home brainwashed into thinking we were evil and going to hell, and so was she for living with us.
Though we could not prove this in court...as we are basing it off the words of our children, and the 'off the record' confessions of one of the workers whom we were working with, it was nonetheless stressed to us during this period, to remove our gargoyles, and anything appearing ritual, magickal or non-christian from our home prior to going to court over them. Make sure there was a bible out and polished visibly in every room.
The court proceedings, and the information given to the court, was so laughable, that the judge signed an order to return our children to us immediately and close the file and get out of our faces before we even made it in the room for our hearing. It is afterall illegal nowadays to condemn someone based on religious beliefs alone...
The Lawyer was dissappointed, for if we could have just gotten the worker who confessed to us to speak out in court we could have won millions....he is still trying to find a way to legally prove this matter....11 investigations in all from Child Protection, the police, Revenue Canada, and even if you can believe it Agricultural Canada, tho I own no land, never mind farmland.
So you see, religious discrimination, and the crimes of christianity, must once again go unpunished, the sins of the xian covered over by the pointing of the finger to the evil parents we must be...
Burn the witches.
While I do not disagree that this type of stupidity is widespread throughout religion, xianity suffers the brunt of it because they are the kings of it.
Why are they the kings...because they slaughtered everyone who did not buy in.
Also, they are one of a select few religions, who claim to be the ONLY way into the kingdom of god, whereas even the neopagans...and ironically Christ, whom they developed their religion off of, said do it yourself, and the ways are many. Not to mention that the path lies inside of you and not outside in some church.
Christ himself was known for the vandalization of a church was he not?
So in no way am I trying to lay out any personal insult to you...but the xian church in my eyes has made themselves out to be the very devils they preach against.
Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, these were good people...who tried to rectify the churches past mistakes.
Perhaps if there were more open minded clergy such as you, the gap between the religions could be more swiftly healed.
However, religion to me itself is in most ways a joke, and a blindfold to keep ppl from finding the truth within themselves.
And while we are sarcastically laying into clergy, let us not forget the ppl...
For it is in the mindless masses, who refuse to band together and fight against suffering that most of the fault lies. A clergyman, would not be a clergyman without the ppl who follow him, for then he would have no one with which to preach...
Please, do keep posting xian, I like you commentary, and feel you have valuable insights to share...
I personally like the bantering found here, tho do agree that we hould all keep from being to heavily insulted by it, and from taking things too personally as well...
I hope I have clarified my position as well as possible...
Neph
PS..
Real and true christians, are very rare, but very beautiful in my eyes...personally
I think it would be damaging to both sides of any arguement on any topic if both parties or sides of the debate did not follow the full course of the topic or if they did not argue with all their skill and talent.
Heated topics are common regardles of who or where they are discussed. Religion, Relationships and Politics are always heated and so they should be. They are very close to our hearts.
The point of the topic has yet to run full circle - back to the beginning again. So much ground work and still no where near the middle, let alone the beginning. I was hoping for more. I was quite positive that Xian had a better point to make and was looking forward to reading it, responding and reading more. It has been an excellent adventure thus far.
Xian, I do hope you will return to the debate for it sours in your absence.
I agree strixy, it is kinda hard to have a debate when there is no opposing viewpoint...
i have no objection to arguing to the full extent of ones ability. I have a couple of problems with what i was seeing there. the first was attacking, which i think is counterproductive. i never intended any of this to be a debate so much as a conversation. can we not all expand each others awareness respectfully? i just think that communication sometimes suffers when we allow our cleverness to run away with us, something that i have had to learn the hard way a few times so i am in a good position to say.
the second was digression from the point, which began as a particular consciousness i was suggesting people consider and seemed to turn a bit hostile and baiting.
i dont think a battle of the egos was what i was trying for here, but i can hardly remember now the subject has become so muddied!
if people just attacked me for being a religious person or even for that particular religion, they would completely miss what i am actually saying.
as i said before, please argue as passionately as you like, but let us be respectful. that is all. its been a long time since i had to put up with the alexis's of the world, and i think i have found a better way of discussion than that since then.
Well, I feel a bit better about the whole thing now that Mandi explained the "cultural miscommunication". In the circles I hang out in, we're all wussy, touchy-feely, tolerant, "let's work out our Meyers-Briggs personality types and share our feelings" liberal Protestants. Not a lot of "trial by fire" stuff goes on.
So yeah, when I read what you guys had said, I interpreted that through lens my experience, where people who say those sorts of things in the tone in which they were said are on the attack.
My problem is that I respond to what I perceive as an attack with the bitterness that only a skin thinned by liberal Protestantism can muster. Hense the bitchy comments I made that I was trying to avoid making by opting out of the discussion. And I appologize for those.
But yes, thanks for the invitation back and for sharing your guys' feelings. What you said now, nephilim, puts everything into a context that makes a lot more sense and which I can understand and sympethize with a lot more. Argh! Here I go being touchy-feely liberal Protestant again!
So yeah, anyways... On topic...
Jelaluddin Rumi:
"Any movement or sound is a profession of faith, as the millstone grinding is explaining how it believes in the river!"
Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.:
"Even though I have never had an abrupt conversion experience, religion has been real to me and closely knitted to life. In fact the two cannot be separated; religion for me is life."
William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience):
"Religion, therefore... shall mean for us the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine...
"...when in our definition of religion we speak of the individual's relationship to 'what he considers the divine,' we must interpret the term 'divine' very broadly, as denoting any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not...
"...gods are conceived to be first things in the way of being and power. They overarch and envelop, and from them there is no escape. What relates to them is the first and last word in the way of truth. Whatever then were most primal and enveloping and deeply true might at this rate be treates as godlike, and a man's religion might thus be identified with his attitude, whatever it might be, towards what he felt to be the primal truth."
I like these quotes on religion for a number of reasons.
The first is that they point to how our religion, faith and spirituality are not differentiated from the rest of our lives. They are how we live our life, not one of many separate boxes. It is a holistic, integrated understanding.
The second is that this perspective does away with our illusions about ourselves and our uncharitable attitude towards others. It is very easy to say that its other people's practices that are religion and other people's beliefs that are dogma, all the while insisting that our religion and dogma aren't religion and dogma, but rather, The Truth.
That's the thing though... Our religion, our dogma, our spirituality, our faith, is simply how we conform our lives to whatever we believe to be true. It doesn't matter if we believe that Ultimate Reality to be the Universe or to be the Creator of the universe, it doesn't matter if we think the truth rests in the Bible or the Book of the Law. It's still our religion.
Within my own tradition, we actually have a pretty eloquent statement on religion that works to humble me on the subject:
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27)
If I were to say that my religion wasn't a religion, it would only be because I have so often failed that test.
I hop eyou can give me soem time to get back to that post. (And thank you for coming back to it, Merry Meet Again, inded.)
So here I am stuck with 10 things running and no time to get them done. I'll work quietly on it while I can, but I think Friday night or Thursday night at the earliest...
Neuter...
or do instead you mean neutered?
Yes your right oolon, your reference was not lost on me...Over the centuries I have found a certain, *refinement, shall we say...
Much like a neutered pup....
Hey you hang out with M for a few lifetimes
....one learns to behave...
She has very sharp teeth...
*wink wink --prod, prod
Not only that but have hung with enough Xtians to be somewhat comfortable with their lingo.
to xian....
touchy-feely liberal protestant?
It is allright xian, if your viewpoint differs from mine...
What role is it you feel as an apprenticing clergy man, that you will play?
I promise not to tease you for it...
...Well ok maybe just a little...
Eloquently written, the bottom half of your post...I too will reserve response for a day or too...
I am thinking more on divine love in a bath tub at the moment...;)
It was nice to see you again. Alas, I had to run off early but that's the way the biscoti crumbles over coffee on Wednesdays. Perhaps we'll see you two again next week?
Hmm... If you're asking about what I see my place as a pastor being, it's something along the lines of a servant facilitator.
I don't stand as an intermediary between people and God, nor as a hierarchical authority (not that the congregation would let you anyways... the "clergy as unquestioned authority" argument doesn't tend to take into account the actual political dynamics of a church). Rather, I see that I have been granted these talents and this call so that I may undergo the specialized training necessary to be a resource helping others to develop their own spiritual lives.
The most obvious is in worship. I'm the guy hired and entrusted to "do" all the official stuff for the service, administering both Word (Scripture readings and exegesis on them) and Sacrament (the liturgical stuff, especially Communion and Baptism). It's not that as a pastor I'd the only one "authorized" to do it... It's just my duty as outlined by the congregation.
As for this exegesis on Scripture, otherwise known as the sermon, I don't myself engage in a lot of telling people what to think. I certainly have an interpretation of the passages that I preach from, but that is always up for debate. My kick is mostly social justice oriented, working from the passages to provoke positive action from the congregation... Y'know, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.
Outside of that, as a pastor, one also acts as catch-all pyschiatrist, counsellor, theological resource, and sounding board for people with issues. And my role in these visits isn't to lay down the law or HEALIN' YA' OF THE DEMON IN THE NAME OF LAWD, HALLELUJAH! It's to comfort people with the good news of God's Love and help them work out there own issues in that understanding.
And all of that is a full time job in itself. Then there's the administrative stuff... Besides the individual congregaion or ministry that you're expected to do all this administrative work for, there's also your responsibilities to the larger denomination. To whatever possible extent, we're trying to keep this stretched out community called the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada together. Lots of meetings. Bleh.
So yeah, that sort of touches on what I see. One particularly magnificent work about the ideal clergyperson that I keep in front of me is Chaucer's description of the Pasron from the general prologue of The Canterbury Tales.
Wow...
I leave webland for a week and all hell breaks loose haha..and what a topic!
Where to begin...?
First of all, in my some 20 years of studying religions..I am constantly reminded of something about a story that figures in the bible itself that no one I know of or read has pointed out to date, which is amusing in itself..
But first, a little background is in order.
'Prayer' or 'communication with God' does not happen until the time of Enoch, in which he starts a new thing by 'calling upon the Lord'. Shortly thereafter we see a unity happen..and some very great acheivements..
Which leads us to the tower of Babel.
I have,after exhausting study, no doubt in my mind that what God had in all actuality done was to 'confound' not exactly the 'language' of the people, but more specifically the 'language' in which they communicated with him...or more to the point, 'Religion'. One sees, when one studies all religions a common thread weaving throughout them all, they begin to look more and more like 'seperate little jigsaw puzzle' peices which constitute something far more grander and larger than any one peice could imagine. Is religion good? Sure it is..as long as you keep in mind that God created ALL of us, not just the Christian or the Gnostic or the Buddhist. Does it matter by which name you 'call' him..not really..,hey, he created this red tape :). Perhaps 'this' is the test, to see if we can rise above the 'confusion'..forget about focusing on one or more trees and 'take in the Forest'.
I wanted to really get into this and make this post 4 pages long with references..but I'll cut right to the point I want to make..
"All roads lead Home"
I actually kind of prefer the interpretation of the Tower of Babel which suggests that the confusion of the languages is a symbol for the alienation inherent in hierarchies.
To build a tower like that is a monumental effort that requires monumental organization... You need architects, financiers, laborours, leads, and leaders. Broken up into these hierarchical orders, the people begin to miscommunicate... Class warfare begins, alienation, antagonism, and the people can no longer function.
This reading is also girded up by the symbol of the tower itself. The "geometric subtext" of the Mesopotamian society out of which the Tower of Babel story was derived is the cone... The thrusting, masculine, rather violent symbol of alienation. The Mesopotamian mindset was one of alienation from the gods, who were themselves aloof and capricious.
This cone, this tower, is itself an indication of this alienation. What are they trying to do with the Tower? To reach the Heavens, to reach the gods whom they are alienated from. And if they can't do that, at least they can build this mighty fortress to display their power.
So it isn't so much that God confuses their languages as an arbitrary punishment (or even as some kind of sorded lesson). Rather, this confusion of languages is inherent to these hierarchies which necessarily develop out of alienation.
This recalls the tension between the spiritual and hierarchical principles that has been one of our major problems since... well... ever. As strixy noted in the other thread, the chivalric code isn't in principle unique to Mediaeval Europe. The tension between the chivalric and monastic codes was simply that era's expression of the tension between heirarchy and spirituality that goes all the way back to The Epic of Gilgamesh.
And that's where I put my foot down and make value judgements. Not all religions are equal or going to the same place. All things may be relative, but some things are relatively better than other things all the time. Religions built on the spiritual principle are better than religions built on the hierarchical principle. The Hinduism of Gandhi is better than the Christianity of George Bush.
Progress is made when we continue to divest ourselves of this rigid, heirarchical, authoritarian, selfishly priviledged/saved/enlightened principle and embrace more fully the loving, sacrificial, forgiving, self-effacing, nurturing spiritual principle.
..Then why not forgive and love the Xtianity of Bush :)?
All these hierarchal orders you mention had existed at least 2000 years before the tower of Babel..why did it not descend into class warfare a long time before that?
The mesopotamians felt alienated by the gods long before the babel incident as well, when the gods 'left' the affairs of men to men and lowered 'Kingship' from heaven. They quickly learned what a shitty job they did without them and tried to call them back once again...a mighty effort being that of the tower of Babel. They were trying to create a mortal "Earth to Heaven" link..as the Sumerian Gods had constructed themselves when they walked the Earth.
Tell me Cory, as this is your vocation, does the church actually pay you to do all of these things, or do you do it from the goodness of your heart?
You seem to have a wonderful vision of how to direct the 'congregations' 'will.'
And yes, I agree sometimes I find it tiring playing a catch-all pyschiatrist, counsellor, theological resource, and sounding board for people with issues.
As too church services, I do not offer any, my church is the open air we breath, the lifestream of the planet and everywhere else also.
Too me the most difficult aspect is travelling to and from peoples homes, providing healings for the sick, and strength to the weakened, and cleaning the homes of the elderly and disabled.
I try to avoid regular group get togethers entirely if I am able, as I do have a social life to attend to as well.
Instead of 'the good news of gods love' I remind my 'congregates' to look deep inside of themselves, and find the divine that lies within themselves...
Offer them a reminder as to the courage and strength they have to offer, and the power just one man has to change his own life and create miracles.
At night, at home, I offer up their prayers, and when they pass this world, I assist their souls in finding their road to wherever they go on the other side.
We are not so different after all are we?
Tower of Babel.
I may have the wrong era here, but wasn't the Tower of Babel Marduk's design?
Did he not declare against Enlil and Ninurta that it was now his time to rule, and create his own 'Heavan=Earth Bond'
Isn't that really why the tower was smited,
And yes D, I agree with the 'languages' theory, whereby it is really how the various ppls know and address their gods.
Grrrr
That was me....D was still logged in on the pc
neph, i think you missed the part where he said he did not direct peoples wills. the church is a lot more of a cooperative than that. i have listened to enough stories, not just from cory, about the presures these guys are under.
xians have a very different approach to priesthood than we do. as much as we all slag on "organized religion" they at least can get their shit togther to do something decent for the greater world now and again. imagine a worldwide magickal collective dedicated to bringing our wisdom into the light instead of jealously guarding our secrets, and improving the human condition at the same time. there would be no end of problems and things needing orgainzing, and that would become the (largely thankless) job of those of us who actually take our priesthood seriously as a service calling. and that would separate the girls from the women as it were, because as much as we say that we are all clergy, most of us are only so to a congegation of one. perfectly valid, and useful to the world as well, since only fully developed individuals can form a strong community, but our cherished love of individual sovereignty unfortunately leaves many of us unable to compromise. if we wish to be of use to the larger world, we have to be selective about the demands we make and able to see past our individual selves.
cory has observed that our practices and ideals are indeed fundamentally different, but in our discussions he has also stated that the feminine cyclic approach to spirituality is complimentary to the masculine linear approach of xianity, and that they balance and neither should dismiss the other.
and thats why i call him my priest, you guys, and why he calls me his priestess. imagine what can be accomplished in such a union.
cory my love, long study of the tarot and mythology has taught me that there are multiple layers of meaning to every story. the babel story is a good example of this in that there are many interpretations and they all kind of fit, but none of them could be seen were we to insist that only the literal interpretation is valid. the point is not which one is right but what we can learn from each.
Well, it's a little difficult to talk about "before" the Tower of Babel when the Tower of Babel story is a myth. The story is describing a reality already apparent to its Jewish scribes captive in Babylon, and which had been apparent for several thousand years by that point.
As for Bush and his religion... I can love and forgive Bush himself... if I work at it... but don't feel to be under any obligation to "love and forgive" his version of Christianity. An ideological system, unlike the people who adhere to it, is not alive and not going to suffer for my disapproval of it. The question is how do we help the adherents to move beyond this sort of shallow, hierarchical, ultimately very dangerous form of religion while still being loving and respectful of the person themselves.
AS for my being a pastor... Yes, I would be getting paid. The bare minimum possible (I guess congregations feel that living on starvation wages keeps us on our toes), but still, serving all these functions for a congregation of 100+/500+/even-1000+ people can get a little harrowing and time-consuming. Speaking as a congregant and not an eventual pastor myself, I think that my pastor friends deserve every cent and a few more cents while we're at it.
Ack! My love slipped one in!
I certainly see that stories can have multiple interpretations. I was just offering the one that makes the most sense to me in the context of both the Scripture and my own inceasant social justice drive. I read every darn thing in terms of worldly power relations ^_^
And thanks for pointing out that stuff about the clergy. If anything, I think my problem could be that I have too much "will" about what I want to see done with the church and not enough flexibility to respond to what may need to be done. The pastors who have this great vision that the congregation isn't interested in tend to be the ones to burn out more quickly than others. Or they get edjumucated real fast.
In a way, and in contradiction to the messages of modern society (argh! Social justice again!), it is probably more important for a pastor to have a sense of vocation than a sense of vision: "this is what I do" vs. "this is what I want to see done." While it is necessary for everyone, I think it is especially necessary for clergy to engage the spiritual discipline of emptying oneself, divesting oneself of ego and will, stripping away attachments to one's own ideas, and letting oneself be reformed in the experience of God's sacrificial servant Love.
Among the positive benefits of emptying oneself of ego and will is that pride also goes out the window, which allows this Christian priest to listen to and take as complementary the wisdom of his Wiccan priestess. You are so amazing!
Well met Cory.. :)
Au' contrare mon frere...hahaha
Actually even as I write this I am looking at airial photos of the demolished base of this 'myth'..I love archeology:).From records recorded by kings of babylon and assyria, we do have a date for the destruction..
I totally agree with you about Bush and his unholy shite..I just wanted to see your answer to that..lol.
As for preists being paid..once upon a time preists got paid quite well..now they probably only dream of seeing the money some highbrow new age flake makes 'gypsying' the masses. I am not one for this 'new age' crap either..it's merely the 'old age' in a plastic wrapper for crying out loud. Again I'll refer to the movie 'Equilibrium' as I see this planet heading straight for that.
Also when I mentioned 'all' religions..I kinda meant all the actual ones(LOL) not Bush's crackerjack redneck version of one.
Were it a different age and different times I would be honing my blade for his head..heh. But the age of meeting violence and tyranny with violence is over..or it should be, as it never solved anything in a long run, just a quick fix.
"The question is how do we help the adherents to move beyond this sort of shallow, hierarchical, ultimately very dangerous form of religion?"
This is the question isn't it...I've been thinking about this for a long time...if you come up with something that will work on all peoples let me know, Please!:)
duilliath, some priests still do make tons of $ and are as corrupt as any old high priest of amun. i dont think a lot of new age "gypsies" are a hell of a lot better than televangelists. the excessively money driven ones give us all a bad name frankly. look at jojo or miss cleo. took at shakti gawain charging $500 a head for one workshop.
it was always a struggle for me to maintain a balance between the amount of $ i needed to make and the amount my clients should realistically pay.
imagine if you had to pay a xian priest for a consultation. there would be screaming. and these guys have to pursue, and pay for, a formal education in their subject, unlike us.
unfortunately, because we are not "organized" we also have no support stucture in place to keep us fed while we go about our priestly business, so we have to charge for readings and house cleansings and stuff. the universe hase been very clear with me about where the line of appropriate charge and services to charge for is drawn, for me personally anyway.
i am working on a post that gets into more detail about my take on priestly responsibilities.
also, i would like to know what proof or indications of proof there are that the ruined tower you have pics of is actually the historical babel, if there is such a thing because i also though that story was just a made up metaphor.
i would also like to point out to cory who once stated that there was no unbroken tradition of paganism that stories like this are how knowledge is passed down and kept alive secretly during times of persecution. how people maintain awareness in the midst of situations designed to put the mind to sleep and destroy freethought. what? thats just a story! its harmless! no master, were not fighting, were dancing! what this? this isnt a wand silly! its just an old broomstick, heeheeheeheeheeeeee! and we are just singing some old work songs, certainly not secret codes to help the runaways escape!
one begins to come to a fairly detailed understanding of the "code" people hide these things with. once you can read that, occult widom is absolutely everywhere, staring you in the face like the hidden images in those stupid 3d posters once you have learned the right way to see them. which i still cant by the way.
LOL..calm thyself M.
I wasn't talking about you or any other 'gypsy' who is actually wanting to help people and only just scraping by.
High preist of Amun,eh..hitting me where it hurts..ha, i like that.
The tower of Babel is well known to have actually existed for many years now, there is a cornucopia of references and records..google some up, lol. They are nowhere's near being finished excavating the old sumerian sites and cities..sadly now, they may never..as some dickhead would rather bomb the shit outta' the place.
I'm sure there are a lot of preists raking in the dough..my point was the common preist get's @#$all for cash.
As for the unbroken line of paganism...one would have to look into the earlier writings of fledgeling religions hellbent on conversion and control of populace to see where the 'knowledge' and 'stories' were kept alive. This is abhorrently obvious!
"i would like to know what proof or indications of proof there are that the ruined tower you have pics of is actually the historical babel, if there is such a thing because i also though that story was just a made up metaphor."
Ditto for Noah's Dinghy, for me, for very personal reasons, while you're at it.
Strixy,
The biblical account of the Flood and a Noah personage was based upon far older texts..one was babylonian(if memory serves correct), the other was Sumerian.
Read the 'Epic of Atra-Hasis' for the full scoop(no ice cream pun intented).:) I hope it helps.
Depending on how open minded you are about things..it would 'seem' that what Noah/Atra-hasis/Utnapishtim did was to 'go forth and collect the "seed" of all living things' and not the animals themselves.
Great sunday school story,lol..I have a simular experience myself.
I appreciated the pun anyway. ;)
:) lol
By the way...do i know you Strixy?
Have we ever met?
Au' contrare mon frere...hahaha
Actually even as I write this I am looking at airial photos of the demolished base of this 'myth'..I love archeology:).From records recorded by kings of babylon and assyria, we do have a date for the destruction..
Presumably you're talking about Etemenanki?
There is a difference between the Tower of Babel and a partcularly large ziggurat that was in Babylon. I think this is one of those cases where people like to ascribe Biblical names to things for sentimental or evocative reasons, though it isn't meant necessarily to "prove" the historicity of the mythic portions of Genesis.
Another case would be Mitochondrial Eve. The name "Eve" was chosen because it evokes the "mother of humanity" image, but it would be foolhardy to suggest that mtEve is the Eve from the second Creation story.
The Tower, like Eve and the Ark, is a mythic story. One may try to track down historical seeds in Babylonian ziggurats or inland sea floodings, but that is distantly secondary to the messages in the stories themselves.
are you an ENFP or ENFJ? ^^
INTJ, actually.
it sounds like a form of manipulation.
Or simply good exegesis, if we presume that Jesus meant something along the lines of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the prisoners and advocating for the orphans. If that's the sort of thing that we're called to do, then it isn't "manipulation" to provoke people who already proclaim Jesus as Lord into considering for themselves the implications of His teachings.
If there is any manipulation, then it would be going too far down the road of what I think those implications are. And that would be my error, since there is always a deep danger in placing a high emphasis on what one thinks ought to be vs. what the Divine reveals of itself, even if it's good stuff like world peace.
Plus, congregations simply don't work that way. If they did, my church would be full of rabidly pro-gay rights people after my one sermon, rather than down a couple families who left in disgust. Again, if anyone thinks that the minister is the puppeteer, then they reveal themselves as someone who just doesn't know how the dynamics of a church work.
...creating a fictional savior jesus to be such a great guy and a god, who looked out for and suffered just like regular people.
Except that the argument that Jesus of Nazareth was fictional is untenable. Whether or not He was God incarnate who rose from the dead is, of course, up for debate, but historically, there is no doubt that there existed this charismatic Rabbi who was crucified. Not to mention the imaginative stretch necessary to suppose that the Apostles and the Church Fathers went to their (usually quite violent) deaths for a character they know they invented.
So I ask - what is the difference between finger pointing and finger wagging?
If not for big fat egomaniacal heads questioning and attacking things we'd all have some seriously weak religions and theories. We'd also still be squatting in the ditch and eating raw meat. Perhaps you meant well but your particular weakness is indicative of a tragickal unconsciousness.
Post a Comment
<< Home