Magical Consciousness
I was having a conversation with someone on the subject of magic and wishes and whether or not it is acceptable to ask God to do stuff for you. Because when I have attempted in the past to explain to xians that magic is not satanic I have often asked them "Do you not pray for things you need sometimes?"
Well he said, "Actually no, I dont." Because he doesnt believe God should be bothered with his puny problems when there is a whole world of injustice out there to take care of.
I was trying in an earlier conversation to explain how psychic ability is not really mystical, though it can be used to access higher states of consciousness, but is an ordinary brain function. It is a mode of thinking and awareness that is not nurtured in our society for the most part. Nonetheless it is quite possible to train oneself to think in any particular way if one has an aptitude for it, to cultivate a greater ability to relate to mathematical, analytical or creative awareness. Anyone can "be psychic" if you are willing to train your mind that way, and some of us have a stronger inclination to do so than others.
So you make yourself notice the things your mind is trying to tell you and you see things others miss. It is possible to refine this ability to an extent that allows you to access any information you might happen to need. This seems eerie to some, but it is no more so than a mathemetician doing lightning fast calculations in her head, for example. You train your mind to do what you want it to, and pretty soon it does the basic stuff effortlessly on it's own, and as you progress and these things automatically happen in the mind, your conscious brainpower can then be used for further advancement still.
There is a great deal more to see than seems possible before you have trained your Eye to look. There are extremely subtle signals that can give very detailed information. The world around you responds to your thoughts as it does to your actions. The world changes slightly each time you change. Just as it is possible to see far beyond your physical senses' ability to percieve, so you can influence beyond your hands' reach. The words you are reading right now will influence, if only slightly, the direction your thoughts travel in the next while, and it is possible that you may carry these Ideas with you and they may influence your actions, and that may influence the action of others. and in this way I, without speaking, have caused vibrations in the world well outside myself, and that world will move a little differently as a result. This is only a small change, but could have huge consequences. Each different mind that takes in these words will imagine something different in relation to what I have said, and new Ideas will be birthed in this union.
It is possible to do this with your thoughts alone, as you become more aware of how far outside of yourself you are able to percieve, influence, extend. It is possible, by living in harmony with what you percieve, to refine your awareness of it to such a degree that you can place yourself in the path of the things that you want, be in the right place at the right time all the time and at the same time serving as a conduit of similar kosmic generosity for others.
It other words, for me, magic is the art of interacting with the outside world at a very subtle level. Both my hands are open, giving and recieving, or it would not work. My eyes are open, watching for opportunities to give and recieve good. The resulting consciousness and response is what I have come to call, very cutesiely, thinkronicity. Active awareness and participation in the workings of synchronicity. You can make this stuff work like clockwork, I swear, without anyone else ever having to suffer for your good. The world is full and generous and poverty is a state of mind.
He has also introduced me to his somewhat consciousness-altering take on the Christian trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He says they represent the transcendent divine, the incarnate divine, and the intimate divine. The intimate divine would be the spirit which permeates all things. See you guys? They're not all that different from us, are they? He does not yet see how that becomes the God within, but that is a hard Idea for some people to swallow at first.
Anyway, continual consciousness of the intimate divine as one spirit simultaneously occupying all space puts one in harmony with the way synchronicity actually works, and suddenly magic and psychism become no more difficult than flexing a muscle, focusing an eye. Synchronicity seems no more mysterious than the natural workings of the physical world. When you are acting in harmony with the Will of the spirit, as expressed through your individual being, all things come to you as they are needed to further the development of this consciousness. It takes work though. It takes a willingness to recognize and accept the true depth of generosity and love inherent in the intricate workings of an intelligent universe, and to be an active channel for that energy to flow through. Force will cause the flow to cease, fear will block it. Willingness nurtures it, and faith.
I'm only just getting there now.
posted by idnami @ 11:54 AM
24 Comments:
he said, "Actually no, I dont." Because he doesnt believe God should be bothered with his puny problems when there is a whole world of injustice out there to take care of.
I am of the same opinion (again) as Xian. The above is why I get rather peeved when someone says they will prey for me. (Among other reasons).
You two should come for coffee. It would be interesting to see you again and I would like very much to meet this interesting character Xian and chat more on the subject.
"The spiritual catharsis involved in prayers for divine benediction is only psychosomatic."
A friend of mine brought this study to my attention just two weeks ago. If you require source material, ask.
The control group consisted of people in a hospital, nobody prayed for them and they were not made aware of the nature of the study. The second group were told people would be asked to pray for their speedy recovery. The third group were told people would pray for their speedy recovery and were actually prayed for.
The control group had longer stays in the hospital when compared to the other two groups - both those who were prayed for and those who were only 'told' there were being prayed for. The control group was released in their expected time frames.
I was not actually bringing up the effectiveness of prayer as the subject of debate here, but attempting to share something of my understanding of the nature of the universe. Prayer is an act of communion and communication with God, however you understand her, as One or as Many. It does not have to be a petition.
The point tht I was trying to get at is that we give her small faith if we think an infinite being can somehow be "too busy" to answer us. God is part of us and we are part of God. The state I was speaking of, the awareness I suggest people cultivate, is a continual state of prayer. Continual communion and awareness of our divine origins and connection. Yes, the answer to prayers may be only psychosomatic. The question I ask is how big do you think your psyche is? Where does it stop and something else begin? Reach out to the end of your awarenes and tell me.
All prayers have already been answered in potentiality. Every resource for growth, development and happiness is already in place. If we align ourselves properly with our divine Will, we can simply know where to be and what to do to attain the highest good.
Oolon, you might call this state "knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel"
Or you could call it zen awareness, or being one with the tao.
Call it what you like really, just try it out!
Oh no, I'm wanting to be met! Ack! ^_^
Uh... sure... I just hope I can live up to the legend growing about me!
I don't believe that the Divine shouldn't care about me. In fact, I believe that the Divine cares quite a great deal about me, and about everybody and everything, with the pure infinite Love of a Being who is pure infinite Love.
My thing with not making prayers for myself is more of an attempt to step beyond my concern with myself... The emptying of oneself that seems to be the predicate to increasing intimacy with the Divine. I have plenty of things that I want, from the absurd (another trip to Disneyland!) to the altruistic (world peace!). But they are all what I want, and my wants are the expression of an ego that needs to be cracked open.
Plus, I'm skeptical of cause-effect approaches to prayer. I had a friend taking a spirituality and medical science class in which they talked about the apparent efficacy of prayer, but still... It would be more damaging to my own theology if prayer did work according to statistical cause and effect, because that would suggest that it's not being done with a Being that has sovereign will.
What else...?
"Some" Christians are spiritual seekers. Well that's... charitable...
I would actually argue that while an underlying spirituality is comparable (given that we're attempting to access a single Ultimate Reality), the relative dogmas of Christianity and paganism are quite different. Take Walter Wink's analysis of the Myth of Redemptive Violence, for instance.
Christian dogma, as an apocalyptic revolutionary movement, actually stands in marked contrast to pagan dogma, as a cyclic status quo lifeway. Christianity was attempting to push social boundaries that were upheld by paganism.
This isn't necessarily nefarious... In a tribal situation conformity is necessary for survival. Christianity came into a very metropolitan world which had a greater need for liberation from hierarchical power.
It also stood in contrast to the Roman mystery religions that surrounded it, as the mystery religions tended to be more for the idle rich than the social untouchables that Christianity appealled to. It was only after the apparent success of this approach that mystery religions started adopting superficially Christian motifs.
Anyways, the really interesting debate on the subject of the conflict between Christianity and paganism, to me, has to do with why Christianity became what it did in regards to hierarhical power and fundamentalist attitudes. Was it an inevitable outcome of an uncontested revolutionary mode, or was it the paganization of Christianity? (in my cheekier moments, I will tend to say that Christianity dropped pacifism and became violent to the exact extent to which it became paganized into the Roman establishment)
Where this really matters is in how we, as Christians, relate to Neo-Paganism, as a counter-Christian socio-religious movement. It's necessary to analyze how Christianity was responding and different from paganism so that we can have a better base to understand how Neo-Paganism is responding and different from us (even as it is also markedly different from pre-Christian paganism... Neo-Paganism has an ethic of individualism and liberty that would have been absolutely unthinkable to pre-Christian pagans).
Or even more specifically, I need to do it to figure out how I as a Christian can make sense of how well I'm relating to this Wiccan girl that I'm maddly in Love with ^_^
I kind of expanded a little.
PS. Oolon's image is nicked from toykeeper.net and appears to be causing some hassle for anyone wishing to leave a comment. Most notably a nasty pop up window. So, Oolon, you might want to consider creating, downloading and hosting your own images. I would be happy to tutor.
"Christianity was attempting to push social boundaries that were upheld by paganism."
Does Judaism count as paganism then? It seems to me that theirs was the first status quo to be challenged. The Jewish people may have lived under Roman occupation, but their law was their own and had come to be used in a corrupt way as so many such potential sources of power are. Jesus came to challenge that along with everything else. It seems to me that his issue was not so much with specific forms of worship as it was with the adherence to form instead of seeking a true connection with the divine. He advocated direct relationship with God as opposed to conformity to dogma. Hmmmm. Sounds kinda like what modern paganism is getting at.
"Christianity came into a very metropolitan world which had a greater need for liberation from hierarchical power."
And then it gave us the "holy" Roman Empire. Or was it the Romans that did that? Conversion at swordpoint is a highly effective way to establish a revolution. The rituals of the church were ALL based on earlier forms of ritual. Xianity may have stood in contrast to the Roman mystery religions at first, but it became one of them almost immediately with an elite priesthood and a universally used language that could only be understood by, golly, Romans!
Not until the protestant movements quite a long time later did Xianity become the egalitarian "people friendly" religion it was supposed to be. Many people had suffered outrageous oppression and violence directly advocated by church authority before that ever happened.
Consequently, the church has a long and distasteful history of forced conformity which has driven many people away. I see Christian thought as a valid spiritual path, but it is a bit rare to see a deep, mystic awareness emerge from it, simply because, no offense, it makes it a little to easy not to think deeply about it. All that is required is that you believe this one thing, show up on sunday, mouth the prayers, sing the hymns, and viola! salvation. There is a deeper experience available, there is a world of spirtual learning available, but it is often not encouraged that people seek the truth for themselves by stepping outside of their dogma and seeking the truth independently of the potentially oppressive framework that has been built, largely according to politcal expediency, in the last 2000 years.
Thus Oolon's remark, though perhaps inflammatory, is sadly true as well. A vast number of Christians do not seek spiritual development beyond the simple comfort of knowing they are not going to hell, and that they have a reason to feel superior to their neighbors. Modern paganism stresses the responsibility of each individual to follow their own path to wisdom, and in essence we do all seek the same experience of the same Spirit.
I dont think anyone has a problem with Jesus so much as they have a problem with the way his words have been twisted and his church corrupted. I think he himself would have a major problem with what the world has done with his teachings.
I respect thinking Christians, and kind of loathe the other kind, as I loathe any who clings unquestioningly to an ideology they only dimly understand to begin with.
Alas that i have met so few of the former. I am blessed to have the opportunity to debate (and stuff!)with one now.
I believe you are referring to the reformation.
A thinking Christian, the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause all walk into the bar...
I would actually argue that while an underlying spirituality is comparable (given that we're attempting to access a single Ultimate Reality),
...the xtian...
True Spirituality, has nothing to do with a 'Single Ultimate Reality' at all...
Following Universal Law, and Will...true spirituality encompasses a far bigger framework then that...
The Universe is ever contracting and expanding, contorting in on itself, erasing pieces, and then beginning again.
It is a constant, and extremely diverse pattern, that somehow, out of no-where came into being...
It is when the Universe began to look in on itself, that different orders of life were born...
To categorize, label, and conform, into a single, unified, cohesive effort, is a vast feat to undertake.
And one that must be ruthless and unafraid to wipe out one's enemy...any and all who oppose it in the name of freedom, and free will, in the name of thinkronicity...
One who can rape small boys and women.
One who can beat, injure and torture. not just its enemies but even itself.
Hang
Drown
Burn at the stake...
A religion founded at the stake by the very sacrificing, of not just it's theifs and beggars, but the very god, which it preys to now to protect it and save it from it's sins.
Conformity is the answer in this formulae...
The masses, give their wills and their souls, to their pastor...priest, high priest, deacon, frater, etc....
Who then directs it as he sees fit...
Until somewhere along the line...or throughout the cycle...sits one man, a master magician, with untold knowledge, ritual and experience...
No matter how much you theorize, debate, and fancy the packaging...the proof, or evidence of that line of thinking, being unveiled as the terrible lie that it is...
The very world we live in today.
No matter what your religion, or view point, it is impossible to deny that our very society is based on a solid xian foundation.
We know this for fact, because it is well documented the history of abuse, slaughter and bloodshed, done in the name of our great Father, his son, and holy ghost.
Or as M puts it...Faith by swordpoint....
You are right xian...in this
Pagans, Neo-pagans, Occult Orders,and even Christianity are not much different from each other.
All have taken part in hate crimes against humanity and the blood of thousands tainting their souls for eternity.
For even the Celts lusted for control.
The jews....control.
The OTO, and other Masonic related orders...control.
The foundation of a pagan coven...
Control by the High Priest/Priestess,
Whereby all of it's members, or 'congregation' give up their freedom, and will to that of its leader.
Imagine for one instant, God, stopped doing this to himself, if for just one instant...he let it go...
And all of the tiny refractions of light, that he sent on out ahead of himself to study and learn, were finally freed from the masses of his clergy.
In each and every religion.
What if instead, in each spark of himself...he let go his mind, his creativity, his freedom, and let himself shine....
There would be no time for Ultimate realities or truths...
Too much exploring of untapped potentials to do.
Alas, no matter what form the divine takes...it seems, somewhat, crippled from a human point of view does it not?
I pray then to god that he wakes up.
M,
Does Judaism count as paganism then? It seems to me that theirs was the first status quo to be challenged.
Good call! I was refering more to Gentile Christianity interacting with the Roman Empire though.
He advocated direct relationship with God as opposed to conformity to dogma. Hmmmm. Sounds kinda like what modern paganism is getting at.
Heh... True and perhaps true ^_~
And then it gave us the "holy" Roman Empire. Or was it the Romans that did that?
"The extent to which Christianity became hierarchical and violent was the extent to which..."
The idea of a "Holy Empire" is a theological oxymoron. The Holy Roman Empire specifically was based on the chivalric code. This code was essentially an aristocratic counterfiet of Christianity, offering a pseudo-religious alternative to the monastic trends of the late Roman Empire and early Middle Ages.
Basically, what do you do if you're unwilling to slay your own impiety and ego? Go kill a bunch of heathens instead! Externalize all sin and submit it to a legalistic code of conduct that focusses one's energies (eg: against heathens, courtly love) rather than actually dealing with the alienation that is at the core of one's own sinfulness.
The values of the Holy Roman Empire and the chivalric code have far more to do with the imperial religion of Rome than with what one finds when they go back to source in the New Testament.
Conversion at swordpoint is a highly effective way to establish a revolution.
One that is also explicitly condemned by the New Testament.
The rituals of the church were ALL based on earlier forms of ritual.
That I don't dispute, what with "Innovative Eclecticism" being the normal creative mode and all. What I find interesting is how they were transformed by Christianity. "Baptized Paganism" and whatnot ^_~
What I just don't have much patience with the argument that Christian theology is a hodgepodge of pagan and mystery-cult beliefs because we superimposed Christian festivals on pagan ones for evangelistic purposes. There simply isn't any evidence for it.
Not until the protestant movements quite a long time later did Xianity become the egalitarian "people friendly" religion it was supposed to be.
Perhaps, though I suspect it was quite egalitarian during the early Apostolic period as well, with leadership deriving more along anarchic principles (whoever is good at something, they do it).
Many people had suffered outrageous oppression and violence directly advocated by church authority before that ever happened.
I definitely do not contest it. What I do tend to contest is how that suffering perpetrated by the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church against Muslims and other Christians is being appropriated today.
I see Christian thought as a valid spiritual path, but it is a bit rare to see a deep, mystic awareness emerge from it,
Not rare... Just not looked for...
Many people, for good reasons or bad, tend not to bother investigating the spiritual, theological and mystical depth that Christianity has to offer. That includes an unfortunate number of Christians.
But nevertheless, whether they simply can't access it ("who? huh?")or don't wish to access it ("all Christians are stupid, so there would be no point"), it doesn't make Julian of Norwich, Hildegard of Bingen, Francis of Assisi, Augustine, John of the Cross, John the Evangelist, Dante, Chaucer, Bach, or me (*wink*) any less real.
Basically, according to what strixy said, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are real, just nobody finds them because nobody bothers looking.
All that is required is that you believe this one thing, show up on sunday, mouth the prayers, sing the hymns, and viola! salvation.
Comparable things could be said about flakey New Age Neo-Paganism. I'm not especially accustomed to Neo-Pagans who are as introspective, educated, articulate, contemplative and as thinking as you are. I can pretty much count the number I've met on one hand (3, to be precise, including you).
... and that they have a reason to feel superior to their neighbors.
Again, the same thing can be said about most Neo-Paganism in my experience.
Modern paganism stresses the responsibility of each individual to follow their own path to wisdom, and in essence we do all seek the same experience of the same Spirit.
In its best forms (meaning you) I can see that. In its best forms (I can't say me this time ^_^), Christianity stresses the wisdom and reconciliation to be found in Love, which is necessarily a relationship.
I dont think anyone has a problem with Jesus so much as they have a problem with the way his words have been twisted and his church corrupted.
I don't think He's been twisted and corrupted so much as ignored.
Anyways, yeah, I value the opportunity to discuss these things with you too. Like I said, on my side of the fence, finding an intelligent Neo-Pagan is quite rare (is it that we don't look for them either?), so when one is found, they tend to command attention... and affection... and stuff ^_~
But at any rate, I'm going to step out of this discussion. I don't think it would be particularly healthy if I slipped into merciless internet debate mode.
Actually, if you're dying to know, I'm opting out because at the best of times, I can be a... vigorous... internet debater, and it only gets worse when the gloves are off and people insult me and my friends personally with the usual "big bad clergy" song and dance bullshit (yes, soon-to-be-ordained me and my pastor friends are part of an evil cabal wanting to oppress all of you! Bwahahahahahaha...haha..hah..ha..).
I'm still here and still reading what people have to say. It's just best if I don't contribute. I call it "discretion", but if you want to declare victory, then whatever floats your boat.
Xian said: "The Holy Roman Empire specifically was based on the chivalric code. This code was essentially an aristocratic counterfiet of Christianity, offering a pseudo-religious alternative to the monastic trends of the late Roman Empire and early Middle Ages."
And also said, "The values of the Holy Roman Empire and the chivalric code have far more to do with the imperial religion of Rome than with what one finds when they go back to source in the New Testament."
Starting with the first sentence in the first quote above I would ask what source you are citing and if you are familiar with the fall of the Roman Empire (476AD). And the first mention of Knightly Virtues in 1100.AD
Your second sentence, "This code was essentially an aristocratic counterfiet of Christianity" I would question, considering that the Knightly Virtues were never publicly recorded or discussed - only debated, even to this day. To claim that they were a counterfit would detract from the essence of their very existence or being in the first place.
Consider that the ideals of "good" or "virtue" can be found in every code of conduct, especially those pertaining to honerable warriors. On a world wide - across time basis all of them are similar, if not "counterfits" of one another. Japanese Bushido counts the same virtues in their Samurai as does the most commonly referred to Knightly Virtues. Christianity did not exist at the time the principles of Bushido were first recorded. The North American Natives have honorable warriors that live to a code of conduct as much as any other Western Kaaanigit. Again, similar virtues only a different history and again separate from Christianity.
The Knightly Virtues and the seven christian virtues are similar, yes. There is a direct connection to be sure considering the influence of the church at the time of their inception. Calling them "counterfits" comes across as though your opinion of the process by which the honerable Knightly code came to be was dishonest. When it appears, or has been speculated, that the codes themselves were developed in conjuction and with the blessings of the Pope in Rome.
As for the second paragraph, So far as I understand it, the "Imperial Religion of Rome" was such that Julius Cæsar was God and served as God incarnate until 44.BC - Not what I would call a Christian position. I'm just trying to recall old lessons which are at best rusty.
By all means, feel free to grease the wheels. I'm argumentative, but again, I do not intend to come across as mean.
Like I said man, whatever floats your boat.
Personally, I would relish the opportunity to correct the errors that develop from your fundamental error of letting your predicates necessitate your conclusion (basically, if you start with ignoring history and looking at Christianity as a fabrication rather than a socio-religious movement, then you will necessarily get the conclusion that Christianity is a fabrication).
The problem is, I would relish it too much. Like yourself, I have the problem of being arrogant, condescending and dismissive when protected by the annonymity of the internet. It's just that I actually do see it as a problem which I need to resolve. Not participating is a good first step.
But then, here I am participating! Argh! Unfortunately, my command over my own pride is something that is tenuous. I have this irritating tendency to want to be understood and given the benefit of the doubt like I generally try to give others. So naturally, I want to keep trying to explain my non-participatory position in order that you may respect it and stop sicking the dogs of your ego on me.
Ain't gonna' happen though, I know. I've had this go 'round with skeptics and Evangelicals enough to know how it goes. My dropping out will inevitably be viewed through the lens of your own conviction rather than by giving me the benefit of the doubt. If I'm choosing not to participate, why, it must be because I'm shrinking away from the tremendous might of your flawlessly academic/rational/Scriptural/enlightened/magical/spiritual argument! It couldn't actually be for, oh, the reasons I say.
So, unfortunately, I can't give the victory of converting me. I can at least give you the lesser victory of appearing smarter than I am when you admire yourself in the mirror. That's gotta' count for something, right?
oooooh kiddies! good times!
my beloved xian, i delight in your mighty brain. discussions like this would be a little pale without you. Please dont stop until you run out of things to say!
let us not, however, become involved in an intellectual pissing contest, nor sink to the even pettier low of mudslinging and deliberate provocation. stick to the point, people.
we have all met idiots of many faiths and creeds. i think we have all seen that any tradition can be manipulated by the unscrupulous and misunderstood by the ignorant. Xians do not have the monopoly on blind adherence, and wizards and witches are not always wise.
so the merits of any faith are best exemplified by those practitioners who have subjected themelves and their religion to deep introspective and comparitive critical study. who has the courage to stare into THAT magic mirror for any length of time? not many at all. i am pleased that everyone here sems capable of it. I know each of you personally quite well, though most of you havent met each other, and i am very pleased at the beautifully eclectic gathering of minds i see here. i encourage you all to argue as passionately as you will, and challenge each of you to step outside your usual response to the individual labels of faith and see the pure energy behind each. we are all learning here that there are in fact thinking xians, thinking pagans, thinking atheists, and that each has a valuable perspective.
the bloodiness and corruption of the church in no way invalidate the truthfulness of the teachings of jesus. the fact that it has incorporated other religious traditions into its framework is only an argument for its validity as far as i am concerned, and perhaps bodes well for the future of that religion if it progreses further down those lines. though now that i think about it, perhaps the reason why it bugs many xians when i bring that up is because they think it somehow taints it instead. or they think i think it.
I once attended a divination class run by a local wiccan teaching circle. i was kind of there as a guest speaker, it was a very basic class. we were talking about runes, and odin hanging upside down on yggdrasl for 9 days with a spear wound in his side to get them. i mentioned the comparison with the christ story, self sacrifice for the good of the people, etc. i speculated a bit on the significance of the spear wound (odin was wounded by himself with his own spear) and was abruptly cut off by the teacher with a brusque remark about "christian corruption" of the myth. he chose not to learn from that correspondence, but dismissed it instead.
MY prayer is that we all will be more respectful, and more courageous, and more willing to learn, and to teach, than that.
Bravo...you all do such a wonderfly colourful job of complicating a simple thing...If you want to know what the LORD's take on paganisim and magikal conciousness is, I suggest you read the book of Revelations. Or to clarify the extent of the spiritual power we as christians can be given through our Faith I direct your attention to
I-Corinthians chapter 12-14
PS:to Mandi's Xian, you are a very brave man to stand up and debate with these people their minds are more or less set in their ways but I would whole heartedly invite you to try and reason with them ... perhaps you may succeed where I have failed...and to let you know you are not the only faithfull Christian in this circle
"...if you want to know what the LORD's take on paganisim and magikal conciousness is, I suggest you read the book of Revelations."
Ah, well.. at last - citing a reference. You get bonus points!
Except for two things. There is nothing that I can find in Revelations that speaks as you claim.
For seconds and thirds on Revelations...
(1:1, 3)
"Things which must shortly come to pass"
John believed that the things that he wrote about would happen soon, within his own lifetime. After nearly 2000 years, believers still believe that "the time is at hand" and that the events described in Revelation will "shortly come to pass."
"He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him."
Everyone will see Jesus descend from the sky. Such an event would only be possible on a flat earth.
Above references on Revelations on loan from the fantastic library known as The Skeptics Annotated Bible
oolon! bad wizard! no more petty irrelevancies if you please! please refer back to our earlier conversation, published next, if you need a reminder of why your above arrogant statements are not only inappropriate, but hypocritical in the extreme. i ask you again to stick to the point actually being discussed and quit smearing up the issue with the huffings and puffings of your ruffled pride. you promised me a relevant comment. i await it with the expectation that it will be couched in respectful terms worthy of your intellect, and not some pseudo-highbrow playground suckerpunch, dig me?
fellow christian, do i know you in real life? as a faithful christian do you suppose you can conscionably be part of a witches circle? i tease, but some of us are not so stuck in our ways that we would say no. I welcome you and your perspective, as i welcome all thinking people who wish to participate in this discussion, as messy as it has become.
if you have been reading long, you will know that i was raised in a devoutly christian lifestyle, and that i had quite a deep involvement with my church. I chose to break away because, ultimately, that manifestation of the divine did not seem relevant to me.
i have since learned that there is no one specific tradition that covers everything, and that ones relationship to god is a matter of personal understanding and individual truth. i choose to learns from all sources because each different individual's experience of the divine is a note of the great symphony. anyone can hear the music and love it, but i want to understand it and master my instrument.
i have read the bible, i grew up reading it. while parts of it are convincing and beautiful, for me it cannot replace the direct experience of god, and the god i have experienced directly tells me i am not going to hell, and guides me every day toward living better.
a loving mother does not punish, but teaches.
tell me about your experience of the divine, if you will. i listen respectfully, as will everyone else.
right guys? no more christian bashing please. we are not here to alienate, only to expand our awareness.
oolon, I have never seen you quite so nice before...
it seems M earns quite a bit more respect then most in your debate tactics...
M's Xtian,
Really, allow me to put a better foot forward...Welcome to the crew.
We are a Very ecclectic crew, and this is what we do to each other all the time...
Tear into each other and test our will and resolve...
We like it this way...
*well some of us anyway*
Hey call us slightly masochistic if you will.
Really, true christians are very hard to come by, and the fact that you stand and quote and argue, without telling us just to go read the bible is amazing in itself...
As to revelations, what our anonymous christian was quoting I believe, is where god talks about what gifts he gives humanity.
God doesn't tell you neccessarily you will go to hell for being psychic per se...
What god says is in reality something like it is very hard for man to determine which side he is talking to i think...
by the way strixy...Xtian, have I got that right?
In any case folks, it seems we have hurt his feelings. I think we have been slightly burning our own witches...
Please come debate to us some more Cory, you are unlikely to get any converts...but I think, it is the same source in the end anyway.
re·li·gious ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljs)
adj.
1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
go ahead and dont call yourself religious, Oolon. you dont need to accept the label for it to apply. we spoke of the singlemindedness and inflexibility of your own modes of thought, and you did in fact admit i was right. i had hoped that you might make an effort to be more conscious and conscientious rather than giving us all a solid example of that fact.
i did ask you to stir up shit, as far as contributing a different and possibly thought provoking perspective. i wont censor what you want to say, i will only point out that it was digressive and state that i am dissappointed.
i have found myself encountering the wizards version of a full moon. i hope you can still see anything with your robes pulled up over your head like that.
I refer to Revelations chapter 22:8-19 to clarify the statement that we should not give power, worship or otherwise Idolise any other than God.
oolon olluphid said "i do not 'believe' that diety exists. i know deity exist.
i have 'certainty' not 'faith'."
my response is Isaiah 44:6-8
The reference to Christian Spiritual potential comes from I Corinthians Chapter 12-14
M. I invite you to guess who I am, we know each other well enough and have had theological discussions in person in the past we also have a mutual friend in the nephilim persona
If we are to "stay on topic" could one of you define that topic, as it seems to shift focus quite often....mostly when people dodge reason
I apologise if any of my comments have offended it was not my intent.
HA HA
Welcome aboard fellow! I am glad you have joined us...
ahhhh yes, fellow, i know you now, and my question about your belonging to a witches circle is answered. welcome indeed.
alas, oolon, that it was an ugly, threadbare, stinky, tired old sweater no good to anyone. such a "gift" is insulting. what dissappointed me was the continuation of an attitude i found unnecessarily antagonistic and frankly bigoted. i always like to think better of you than that. would you be so kind as to favor us all with some description of your own experience with spirituality? my objection is only to this incessant need to pit one tradition against another. can you tell us what you think and have experienced without needing to make negative comparisons to support your case? i would appreciate the objectivity of that very much.
Why hasn’t the topic of Christ Egregore come up in this conversion yet, It truly guilds the Xian aspect in many areas including the comments in this comment string.
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