Tuesday, November 22, 2005

Sex in Church: SpiRitual Intercourse

Goodness me is has got lively around here again.
Interreligious dialogue? Is that dialogue between the subscribers of various religions or communication between the traditions themselves? For me it comes down to both. I have discovered something recently. The first half of my life was spent completely immersed in the church, and it has shaped who I am as surely as the craft has. It shaped my approach to the craft. The symbolism and doctrines were incorporated into my psyche when I wasn’t looking. This is something that has occurred to me dimly in the past, as I tried to make sense of it all, but now is right in my face and will not be going away. So I have been examining my roots and how inextricably bound up in my total spirituality those teachings are, and what has emerged now that a certain type of sacred marriage has taken place in my own mind. In this spirit I give you my recent thoughts.
I do not look at Eucharist as sexual in the sense some may be thinking, but if you examine the core symbology there are some correspondences. The cup represents the vessel bearing new life, yes? New life as expressed through blood, symbolized (in most traditions) by wine. The womb sheds blood, the womb shelters new life. The cup was used to symbolize the womb in many ritual traditions because this is what it made people think of, but in the tarot, the cup is also the heart. The host represents the body, the physical manifestation of a spiritual truth. So it can be thought of as the joining of heart and body, mind and spirit. Union on all levels, within the self, and with God. About as complete a mystical marriage as one could ask for.
While I am quite sure that most Christians don’t think of it specifically in that way, the implication is nonetheless there. It does not threaten, but rather enhances ones understanding of the whole meaning. Just as the claim that the church is laid out to symbolize the female reproductive organs may not seem valid to those who are uncomfortable with that imagery, the implication is there. Certainly the most transformative activity takes place at the spot where the uterus itself would be, and the developing fetus. Think of that. A sanctuary sheltering a growing, living thing. Do you disagree that that is what it is supposed to be? People say "mother church". People enter, engage in ritual union with spirit, partake of new life, and emerge reborn. That shape may ALSO represent a cross, but the cross as a sacred symbol is also older than Christianity, and what did it mean, for example, to the Celts when they incorporated it? It meant both. Don’t believe me? Look at the Celtic cross. What does that circle around it represent, I wonder? Answer: more than you think it does. Way more.
The acknowledgement that there may be undertones of sacred sexuality, of feminine power within Christian ritual tradition, does not diminish the significance of the rest, nor is it intended as some kind of obscenity as I think my priest may be thinking. When we say sacred sexuality, we are not referring only to bodily drives or a bodily process. There are deep spiritual associations in the idea of two opposite forces merging and becoming one, transforming, creating something new between them. These things are deep, universal parts of human nature and the psyche. They express themselves subconsciously even when consciously repressed, just ask Freud. The fact that some people never thought of those associations before does not mean they are not there.
Like it or not, people built the church. They expressed their innate sense of the sacred within it, of which for many sexuality was part. The idea of the body as somehow dirty and sexuality shameful was quite an alien one for some cultures.
In the same way, the towering steeple is thought to represent the masculine principle. Erect ascending, proclaiming, obvious, outer, it shelters and protects the internal. It inspires (fertilizes) the mind and heart.
All over the world, lots of the old ways were snuck into the church, because people needed to reconcile themselves somehow to the change, which they largely had no choice in making. As my beloved priest observed, you cannot change peoples thinking overnight. You cannot walk into a patriarchal society and suddenly demand that perfect equality be granted to women just like that. Just so, you cannot walk into a pagan environment and expect to eradicate deeply integral ancient tradition in one fell swoop. Of course the early spread of Christianity, and thus the overall development of the church, was influenced by the previously held beliefs and ideals of the people who converted, because, as Paul has showed us, even radical conversion will not change who you truly are at heart. To suggest that peoples whole thinking was simply transformed and none of the entire foundation of human psychology prior to that point managed to survive the advent of xianity in their respective regions is maybe a little ridiculous, a little conceited. The church did not drop entire from heaven. It was created and developed by people, fallible ones, inconsistent and sometimes self-serving ones.
I do recall the first time I proposed the idea of the church operating off co opted pagan rituals to my priest (then just a cute guy I was trying to get with) he turned to me and said “I think of them as baptized pagan rituals.”
I have no problem with that at all. I’d like to see more consciousness of it though, and possibly educate certain Christians about the deeper implications of that.
And so, just as in many places the church is still riddled with residual misogyny from the Greek and Hebrew foundations upon which it was built, not to mention the political expediency of maintaining control over women, so too have a great many pagan traditions survived that were incorporated by Celtic and Teutonic converts. This begs the question: how is Coptic Christianity different, how is Korean Christianity different, how is Indian Christianity different? All of those are unified by a central belief in the same basic precepts, but its ritual traditions are definitely influenced by the previously held beliefs of its converts. Each of those is influenced by the period in history during which it was introduced. This does not in any way diminish the validity of Christianity as a system of belief.
So, does one need to be a Jew to be a Christian? Jesus didn’t seem to think so. He himself rejected many of the ritual traditions and taboos of Judaism, though he was raised in the faith. He seems to roll right over the 10 commandments. He looked beyond religion and dogma to the truth of the divine, to the truth of people’s responsibility to one another, to the truth of his own authority to speak. He taught a way of living that was universally a good idea, relevant and applicable to anyone, not just Jews. Therefore, just as the Jews who became believers still kept many of the Hebrew laws, and continue to, so the pagans who became believers kept to many of their own traditional philosophies. It cannot be avoided I’m afraid, and i see no reason why it should be.
I do not know how the church developed its unholy terror of anything pagan, since it was the Pharisees and Sadducees, both Judaic political factions, that had the finger pointed at them by Jesus, and he doesn’t seem to have much to say to condemn paganism at all, except that he condemns all who put on an outward show of virtue but inside are unvirtuous.
Then again, I am only now renewing my study of the new testament and have only read the first three gospels so far, but I did once have a knowledge of the bible which was comparable to my current understanding of metaphysics, so this is really only a refresher, but I am of course seeing it with new eyes. Still its possible that the things I will read next may somehow contradict what I have read so far, but even that does not, for me, diminish the validity of the whole. I am accustomed to forgiving the inconsistencies in reporting and focusing purely on the core message.
And the message I am getting now looks a lot like the one I got before, which I was called sacrilegious for voicing, only now I have the benefit of a world of understanding to clarify what seem to be the inherent contradictions in what I have learned, as well as a much clearer perspective on those who said this.
Christians may not agree with me, but they don’t need to. Jesus didn’t say, “Be a good Christian.” He said love your neighbour, let your light shine, keep knocking, keep asking, it will be shown to you. Speak truth in spite of persecution. Have true faith and you can heal, be healed, change the world. Repent your hypocrisy and blindness and deafness. The kingdom of heaven is here, NOW.
Now.
That’s the part about it I find compelling.

50 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mornin' my Beloved,

I don't find the idea of a feminine power expressed through sacred sexuality in Christianity to be an obscenity... I simply find it to be not present.

(Okay, maybe I find the one about the church floorplan a little obscene; not because of the association of the cross with the womb, but because it is attempting to co-opt this simple language of church architecture: churches are based off the device of capital punishment that the Romans used to murder Jesus. Personally, I look at a picture of the reproductive system and a picture of a cross and I don't see the resemblance)

As I noted in my response in one of the threads, I can see where one might derive those interpretations you spoke of if they layer their own symbol structure over our own. One certainly can look at these things in this way, and another certainly doesn't.

I don't tend to view symbols as immutable, unchangable, or forever invested with some sort of archetypal form. Symbols are a language, fluid and changing with every person and culture that attaches certain meanings and disattaches others.

I actually have this same sort of discussion with other Christians who are insistant that through the various rituals and symbols of the Church we are actually covert pagans. The pagan symbols we Baptized had a certain meaning in the cultures, and we reoriented those meanings... It was not a recognition of the eternal immutability of these symbols, but rather, to learn a new language in order to communicate with people. I know darn well the pagan roots of certain Christmas or Easter symbols, but I also know darn well Who I'm honoring in my own heart. Understanding a wide variety of symbolic languages absolutely adds a richness and depth to life, but the application of those is one's own.

But anyways, that's what I've been saying about the sexual analogy for the Eucharist. One is certainly entitled to read this symbolism onto the Eucharist, but let's be clear that this is what we are doing. None of this "it actually means..." business. One is reorienting the symbolic language of Christianity.

For myself, which is where all this tootling along ultimately comes from, I don't put much into the sexual symbolism read onto Christianity because it doesn't resonate with me. I am "spiritually androgynous", if you will. Masculine/feminine dualities ultimately don't speak my religious language or articulate spiritual ideas that are relevant to me. Actually, there is only about one duality that I actually find theologically relevant (intimacy and alienation), which is oppositional and ultimately isn't a duality because one is merely the absense of the other.

There is one duality I find personally relevant to an extremely high degree. That one being, of course, the complementary duality between you and me. In that one I might admit masculine and feminine, just as I admit Christian and Wiccan, linear and cyclical, etc. and so forth. However, that dualism is also kept in a certain tension by the fact that it isn't so much masculine and feminine as it is androgynous and masculine/feminine (maybe it has to do with the insight of some 17th century femininsts that men have the luxury of thinking androgynistically, in which case my spiritual androgyny is masculine anyways, who knows?). The One is my bag and the Many is yours.

7:23 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

i did not intend to say,"it actually means" i intended to say "it also means, for some" and some of those were quite possibly connected to the founding of the church. symbols have a certain amount of subconscious psychological significance, no matter which way you reorient them.
has the person who was saint cecilia somehow changed in nature because she was adopted by musicians as their patron in spite of the fact that she had nothing much to do with music? is her sainthood, her personhood, what it was or what it was made into? a combination of both? does she as herself have an enduring reality or is she merely a symbolic personification of the ideals that have been imposed on her? is her meaningfulness as either diminished by this division?
i am not being a snot, i hope you realize. i really wonder this stuff. i dont know the answer to questions like these, and the existence of such questions is what keeps my world spinning! damn its so fascinating!
but in the course of my wonderings i have discovered that while a symbol may mean something different to different people it retains something of its original associations in the collective unconscious, especially if it was based on something concrete to begin with. like a part of human biology, just as an example, or like a thing people see every day and depend on, like the sun.
actually now that i think of it the sun is a very relevant example, probably far more so than the female reproductive system.
so we had ra, we had apollo, we had aten, we had lugh. bunch of others, whatever. now we have jesus, light of the world, associated by many with the sun. jesus is himself. ra was himself, lugh was himself, apollo was himself, whatever you think of the nature/existence of the other personifications of the god concept connected to the sun, they are distinct unto themselves.
the sun is still itself. it is not literally any of those beings, but it has symbolized them all. creating one more association with the sun as a god symbol does not cancel out the others in the human psyche as a whole. not unless you could erase every myth, destroy every artifact and get rid of every person who recalled any association other than the latest one, and maybe not even then. now, bearing in mind that this would be true even if it turns out you are right and he is the one and only personification of the total divine, there are many people who will, whether they believe that themselves or not, continue on some level to see those associations and include them with the whole that is expressed, symbolically, by the sun.
the many are within the one.
i can well believe the feminine/sexual imagery i have mentioned does not resonate with you, but its a big part of how i think, and i feel that i need to familliarize you with that for obvious reasons. i introduce these associations to you not only for the sake of your understanding of me, but to give you an awareness of where they come from when others mention them to you.
im not just making this shit up, you know.
there are those christians who see something of these associations as well, and it may be that one day you will encounter them on a professional basis, and so it may be well to have some familiarity with what they are thinking.
i dont know how lutherans are taught, your church seems significantly different from the one i was raised in in many ways, such as the absence of elaborate ritual drama that was a weekly part of services at st michael and all angels cathedral. much of my early experiments in metaphysical thought were inspired by what i read into those ceremonies. i cannot help but see the correspondences with certain other philosophies now that i have become familliar with those.
it is not neccesary for you to agree. i only want you to see it because it is such a reality to me. how can you really know me otherwise? you cannot. these ideas and the need to explore them are intrinsic to my being, sorry about that. love me, love my consuming passion for bizarre philosophia. im only just getting started.
and no, im not trying to change how you think, im trying to refine how i think, and i do that largely by debating with those who think in an utterly different way than i do. i expect to influence you of course, but i also expect to be thoroughly surprised by what you do with that influence, just as you may be very surprised by what i am doing with yours.

11:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of these days I will have sex in a church. I'll comment then.

7:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I absolutely agree with the points on inherent symbolisim in many churches, they are there which brings this to mind: Many religious heirchal structures cannot be trusted to teach the right path to true faith because their adherence to the old symbology which as you say was incorporated for their comfortable conversion. Many so called denominations of Christianity should not even be assosiated with the term they have drifted so far from the truth. "thou shalt not bow down before any graven Image" I believe includes many symbols in circulation. One denomination that I know of the Mormans, actualy goes so far off the beaten path as to be considered a cult by many religious scholars and by definition cult means anti-christian or against God(depending on your translation)
As previously stated symbols are in many ways a language, in other words...they are words after a fasion and in the same way as languages evolve from one to the next so do these symbols, but as in language quite often the meanings dont change much.

4:09 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

re: your comment about mormons. mormons are possibly the least pagan/idolatrous of all the sects based on and devoted to jesus. their chapels are completely unadorned, they dont even use the cross. they have hardly any symbolism at all until you get to the temple, and you only go there if you are reccomended by your bishop, which means most mormons can go because they mostly just want to ascertain that you are a believer.
the point is, most sundays mormons sit in a quite plain room and have a meeting which is interactive and egalitarian. lots of talks, lots of really good singing etc. they have mostly divorced themselves from any pagan based customs at all, although as you say, the validity of the mythology that church is based on is of questionable validity - which detracts nothing from the fact that they are one of the most effective organizations in the world in a ton of ways. i kind of admire them actually, even though i love pagandom. their system is well thought out, and they exhibit the greatest xian virtues, quietly and good humoredly for the most part.
its not the vessel, its what it contains.

6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fact still remains that they are considered a "cult" and perhaps on the surface they are fine, they (as a group) have violated several biblical precepts which cultifies them no matter how much it's candy coated by deeds.

12:11 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

christianity started out being called a cult and the orthodoxy of that time considered its teachings to be a violation of many things. good actions and good, concious living are what makes good people and a good world. its impossible to do anything at all without going against some part of the bible, and so i think, even if one intends to take that one text as their sole guide in all things, that a certain amount of personal discernment is needed to interpret what one reads in there, because it is full of contradictions. i dont know how one who believed the entire thing to be literally true and currently applicable could dare to go on living in the world at all.
what precisely do you feel to be the requirement of acceptability in the eyes of god? if it is acceptance of jesus as ones personal lord and saviour then the mormons are in. they have that, and then a whoooole bunch of other stuff going on too.
if it is perfect literal adherance to the bible, everybody in the whole world is going to hell anyway.
if it is doing ones best to live in truth and consciousness, which breeds compassion and reconcilliation as a natural effect when one has attained enough clarity, then anybody stands a fair shot if they are willing to be really honest with themselves.
i do not think the original sin was the disobedient act of eating the fruit, because i think that was expected. it was in the attempt to hide themselves when god called them afterwards. and that is not sin as in evil, that is sin as in fear, and fear caused the trust to be broken in both directions. they never got over fear and the need to hide and neither have their descendants, whether you take this literally or figuratively. we must reveal ourselves to ourselves and work from there.

1:35 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

they layer their own symbol structure over our own


Actually, it is really more that Christianity has layered their own symbols over predated rituals and symbology. In order to make more smooth the transition into the religion.
The religion itself is very much a hodgepodge of various assorted religions, and philosophies which predate christianity altogether.
There really are not very many stories from the bible that do not predate it.
Even Jesus was predated by Virocacha in many ways.
The Green Man is another excellent example of the Sacrificing of One man to make up for the sins of all of the others.
The biblical flood? The Mayan and Summerian deluge.

I do not disagree, that one with the knowledge and teachings, can see into Christian ritual and practices, much deeper and hidden meaning then that which is taught by the orthodox church.

Perhaps, these secrets which are "not hidden" are just missing within the context of the Lutheran Church, in much the same way that the Jewish tradition chooses to leave out the birth of christ altogether.

As a matter of fact, if one is choosing to look into Magick and Symbolism within the church, I would look towards St. Micheals and say...you know, I can even see a tree of life within it's structure.
The babtismal room representing Kether,
The entrance Malkuth...
The little room to the side that we waited in, while awaiting to be called out for my daughters funeral, could very much be seen as the Abyss...
For although we were there and attending, not one person from the actual mass was present.

St. Micheals, very definetly is not shaped as a womb...as there are no little rooms coming off to the side to be the ova.

However, it also very much is like one....in the context of 'Mother Church' and how the congregation sits within her each Sunday awaiting the opportunity to be 'born anew' into the world, upon leaving, feeling themselves as the good christians they are.

Personally, I look at a picture of the reproductive system and a picture of a cross and I don't see the resemblance)

The resemblance most certainly comes in more fully when looking at a celtic cross, the Christian cross, I will agree, has most certainly stripped the feminine principal from it.

So in retrospect, are we in fact, layering our own symbolism over the church? Or are we instead, seeing how the Christian mass has been layered on top of our own symbolism, and seeking to find this hidden meaning within as a way of connecting with Christianity?
After all...it is most definetly what pagans of the past have done when first converted....
And another point of arguement...you look down to Mexico and the ancient secrets of the Navajo and other Sorcery based magicks...
They have embraced Christianity in a huge way, and yet still perform powerful ritual and magickal ceremony that by a tech


The most beautiful thing I ever found about that church was the stained glass tarot that lined the walls...
All twenty two Major Arcana.

Now again I am switching Churches on you and I realize this...
But my Friend who is Quite high within the Hierarchy of his church...who also happens to run this particular church,
Was quick to point out to me that there is a deeply routed Magick, symbolism and ritual within the church, and one that is definetly vieled from the common parishoner who attends.
As he put it "The Church is not accustomed to sharing the ritual and High Magick wich it performs."

He acknowledges a selective teaching is taught, because the common believer has no need for the elaborate Ritual, and Symbolism involved...
And actually he agreed with me on the Mystic Marriage aspect of the Eucharist.
Although he was quick to point out, that it indeed, is about transcending the Marriage of just the male and female...
The symbolism is there yes, but it is more or less about the Marriage to the Divine, which comes when you Unite the female/male principle within you.

But the one interesting thing he also acknowledges, is a supernatural influence within the church as well

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are partialy right in most of those assesments on what it takes to be acceptable in the eyes of God...indeed I believe it requires nearly all the above if you are in it for the long haul. God is quite aware I am sure that It is difficult to walk the path He would choose for us, one requisite that you missed is the submission of your will to that of the Divine Will, and as for living in the world well for now we don't have much choice,
John 2:15-16-17
"Do not love the world or the things in the world.If anyone loves the worldthe love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh,the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-is not of the Father but is of the world.
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the Will of God abides forever.
2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things inwhich are some things hard to understand,which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.

The Mormons are guilty of violating the warning layed out in Revelations 22:18

The Book you refer to as having many contradictions has none if read with an eye to the truth and a desire to learn. The most promminent of these contradictions is purportedly the old and new testements, when infact the old testement is a history lesson and a prediction of the new testement.

3:15 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

excuse the choppiness of the above post...
I was trying to type, post and appease some fighting children all in one
;)

9:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(singing) If you can't say something nice...

11:53 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

actually fellow, i think that warning applied specifically to adding or subtracting from the book of revelations itself, not the bible compleat. the bible is a collection of books and letters written by different people who did not even neccesarily know they were writing scripture at the time. those books that were included in the compilation were chosen by people. on what basis were some writings included and some not? could certain neccesities of translation be construed as adding or subtracting from? lack of equivalent words, problems with syntax etc. would certainly force the translators and editors to make certain leaps of logic in interpreting. what if certain ideas cannot be directly translated? would that loss of meaning incur the curse?
something else that no one considers is that, in hebrew at least i dont know about greek, the characters have meanings of their own. would a hebrew writer, familliar with those atributions and inspired by the spirit of god, not perhaps choose his wording in such a way as to maximize the communicative effectiveness of the letters themselves? suppose that there are messages interwoven with the main message, expressed in the order of the characters?
he of many names could tell us more about this i think. when was the gematria thought up, someone? the numeric value of the words would say something as well. remember how connected these people were to egypt.
so its possible that a great deal more is actually being said than can be read in a translated form.
this is completely idle speculation by the way, i really have no idea.
my final argument on behalf of the mormons (why do i so often find myself going to bat for those guys?) is that they have not added anything to the bible. they have a completely seperate scripture which is called ANOTHER testament of jesus christ.
now i know the mormon story is a reeeeealy wierd one, but just for a moment consider this. suppose jesus actually DID visit the americas? suppose that he spoke to the people there, and gave them the same message? why would he ONLY appear to one nation if he was here to save the world? if he was the son of god truly, it would be no problem at all for him to do some travelling, and there is a large gap in the documentation of his life. he did say "other sheep have i that are not of this fold."
what do you suppose he meant by that? would it not be a really bad sin to suppress the knowledge of this?
im not saying i think the mormon story is true, it sounds like a lot of crazy talk to me, but then much of xianity and, to be honest, much of religion of whatever brand, including what i practice, sounds that way to me. the point is, its no crazier than the original jesus story itself, but a whole lot of people deeply believe it. if you really and truly believe a thing (whether or not it is actually true) you will live in service to that belief. the mormon people really are dedicated to doing good in the world, and frankly they have no blood on their hands at all. so who, ultimately, has been truer to what jesus was teaching?
do you think god really cares? if it inspires people to try and reach up, i think this being that supposedly loves everyone would be more than pleased. god didnt invent religion you know, people did. you think angels go to church? all this ceremony would not be neccesary at all if we werent still all hiding in the bushes with our guilt and fear. if we could stand naked before god and each other without shame or fear, there would be no separation.
that is why many witches practice skyclad, because we know this.

12:08 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

interestingly, by their own logic they are not sexist at all.
woman are not members of the priesthood (though nearly every male recieves ordination at the age of 12) because they have what is considered the higher calling of motherhood. they are supposed to have as many kids as they possibly can, and raise them well.
this means most women wouldnt have the time or energy for the demands of the priesthood and so the men, incapable as they are of bringing life into the world, are stuck with the responsibility of keeping the church wheels turning. women are still missionaries and home teachers. they still speak in church and teach (at least they dont take paul literally!) and are listened to. there are some who adhere to the whole "wifely submission" thing, but i think that is holdovers from an earlier time, the way it may still exist in many churches and will be wiped out in the next few decades, barring some wierd holocaust a la handmaids tale.
i forgot about the freemason link. maybe they are not so far removed from paganism after all.
my mother said that the wiccan 1st degree initiation ceremony was very similar to the jobs daughters one, including the challenge at knifepoint! hmmmmm.
incidentally, ever looked at the symbol of eastern star?

8:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Couple Points here

1 The Bible was written by several different people

2 The Bible has been translated numerous times

3 The Bible has been edited by several governments and churches

4 Cult does not by ANY definition imply anti-Christian

5 The Mormons are considered a CULT because, a group of Christians, including Catholics, Lutherans, and Orthodoxs, decided that they were...Hmmm no conflict there. BUT...it was determined that they were a CHRISTIAN CULT.

6 The Symbolic-Interactionism of any symbol is fluid and determined at least in part by the society in which it is interpreted...An example is the Swastika; which prior to WW2, it was a symbol of good luck, which is now a symbol of hate. In and of itself it is nothing, without the interpretive aspect.

7 The reason that symbolism is so prevalent in any religion is that the path to spiritual development is facilitated by appealing to an interpretive meme. It allows the individual to interpret the symbol in a way that the concept becomes accesible to that person.

8 I personally have a strong spiritual connection to garlic. I think it is representative of how one is. It has medicinal properties. It is tastey. If you indulge to much it hurts you. It's best if you and all the people with you have some. It is layered. It is diverse in application. It has a great intrinsic Value.

DC

9:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello Beloved,

Regarding Saint Cecilia, we run once again into that problem with Christianity's theological claims being grounded in its historical claims.

I personally don't take on the apparatus of patron saints, though I value the influence of the saints both historically through their lives and teachings and metaphysically through their accessibility as fellow members of the Body of Christ who have passed on into pure relationship with God.

Basically, I don't consider Saint Cecilia to have anything to do with music if she had nothing to do with music. Like Christ Himself, she isn't a symbol of anything unless she is grounded in history. But then, I don't consider saints to be symbolic of anything, really. To me they are models of exemplary Christian life in shared Body of Christ.

But that is also how the process of beatification works. No saint, to my knowledge, was adopted as a saint because they are "symbolic" or "analgous" to some occupation or talent. They were beatified because they were exemplary Christians. Which is simply to say that they were exemplary human beings, and we Protestants do have a canon of unofficial saints as well.

Later meanings were attached onto them based on real or inferred occupations or talents they had. The resemblance between the canon of patron saints and the pantheons of various deities (the gods of this, that and the other) actually strikes me as an uncomfortable and even kinda' disrespectful dilution of why they were beatified. I'm sure that a sizable chunk of the saints would be horrified to see themselves regarded as pantheonic deities.

(That affirmation that theological claims must be grounded in historical claims is also part of my problem with Mormonism... Mormons can and do lead quite exemplary lives, with their fair share of blind spots. But the core theological claims are grounded in utter fiction that claims to be historical, and that diminishes its seriousness for me)

------------------------------

Neph,

Actually, it is really more that Christianity has layered their own symbols over predated rituals and symbology. In order to make more smooth the transition into the religion.

I do not deny that we learned the language of other faiths in order to preach what we had to preach. There are certain essentials that, if they were adopted from anything, were adopted from Judaism, the most prevalent being the Sacraments. But as I noted in the debate over Mithras, the problem with ascribing such thievery is the quite blatant theological differences.

Even Jesus was predated by Virocacha in many ways.
The Green Man is another excellent example of the Sacrificing of One man to make up for the sins of all of the others.


From what I can gather, there isn't really a clear scholarly idea on what the "Green Man" figure represents besides how the figure has been appropriated by neo-pagans. Virococha is an interesting story, but fails in relevance to the topic on the grounds that A) the story originated on the other side of the globe and thus couldn't influence the formation of doctrines about Jesus, and B) is a mythic story whereas Jesus is historical.

And there is the rub: Jesus is historical. Jesus isn't a myth that happened in a time before time nor a myth appropriated by this evil sect of oppressors (which I think I addressed adequately by showing how they weren't oppressors when all this was being formulated).

He was an actual human being living in Palestine 2000 years ago, and His immediate followers were absolutely convinced that He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Jewish Messianic expectations (Paul records a fully formed creed about Jesus' resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:1-9, recounting that he received it upon his conversion, which was within 2-5 years of Jesus' death... The resurrection wasn't a historical accumulation).

Perhaps they inherited those expectations from others, maybe not. If they did, all that means is that in Jesus they saw the real, historical Sacrificed God. Not a mythic, symbolic figure from a story, but the myth being fulfilled in history.

The biblical flood? The Mayan and Summerian deluge.

The flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh is more likely than the Mayan flood, again given the geographic proximity. But even then, if you read the flood stories in the Epic and in the Bible, they have certain resonating themes, but their meanings and contexts are quite different.

The resemblance most certainly comes in more fully when looking at a celtic cross, the Christian cross, I will agree, has most certainly stripped the feminine principal from it.

Again, even with the addition of a sun-disk behind the cross, I just don't see it. And again, I would refer to the historic roots of why we use the cross as a symbol: it was the form of captial punishment that the Romans murdered Jesus on. If one wants to make the argument that the Romans were crucifying people on womb-symbols, then I guess that's their progative. It might make for interesting ideas read onto it, but the basic vocabulary was that Christ was murdered on a cross which was engineered for practicality.

As some have noted, if Jesus had been killed on the electric chair, we'd be wearing little electric chairs around our necks.

So in retrospect, are we in fact, layering our own symbolism over the church?

Quite. You're applying the vocabulary of your own meanings over the vocabulary of our own. Yes that vocabulary developed in part as we learned the language of others in order to spread the gospel, but that doesn't negate the significant differences in meanings those vocabularies were applied to.

Or are we instead, seeing how the Christian mass has been layered on top of our own symbolism, and seeking to find this hidden meaning within as a way of connecting with Christianity?

Perhaps, but those are two different things. Whether or not you're finding what our language "really" means or whether you're redefining our language is separate from whether or not you're trying to connect with Christianity. Either of the former would aid in the latter.

As he put it "The Church is not accustomed to sharing the ritual and High Magick wich it performs."

And he is certainly welcome to his perspective and practices.

He acknowledges a selective teaching is taught, because the common believer has no need for the elaborate Ritual, and Symbolism involved...

Personally, I feel no compulsion to veil anything from the congregation, nor to engage in that which would be useless for them.

That actually has a lot to do with my own past and the anger I felt when I finally had to take it upon myself to learn the whys and whatfors of our liturgy. When I did, I found an incredible depth and beauty in this symbolic language. Up to then, we had been debating the traditional liturgy and whether or not we should keep using it since no one knew what it meant. Of course no one knew, since no body taught the language! It's like doing mass in Latin when nobody understands it! It's just masturbatory.

10:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, Anonymous I must apologise for my misuse of the term cult

Definitions of the term "cult," and alternative language

Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership’s demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders [1]

Cult: A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control . . . designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. [7]

The best characterisation of use of the term cult is that it remains controversial.

The bible was writen by several people...yes...all of them were Apostles.
The bible was translated many times...yes...It was compiled, copied and sent to several nations within 2 generations after Christ's Death and Resurection.
I highly doubt that so many diferent governments during that era would have been able to colaborate on a single "Eddited version" and yet there is still only one. several translations due to current language slang but put one copy of each side by side and you tell me the difference in their translation.

Funny you should mention the Masonic influence in Mormonism
I don't know what actual expirience any of you have with the freemasons but I have spoken at great length with a Croatian Scholar whom has several old literary works concerning the Masons...and It might interest some to know that at the higest levels of Masonic circles Lucifer is given Sovreignty. That fact is not well known, infact It may be imposible to prove without being one in those circles...
I knew of a Priest, Catholic by hapinstance, that nearly lost his son to an illness that could not be identified or treated the priest prayed to God for healing...no dice.
During one prayer it was clamed he was visited by an Angel who told him to remove the small masonic alter he kept which by his inclusion in the masonic tradition was an affront to God. The following day he removed and destroyed the alter, resuming prayer and within 2 weeks his son was released from the hospoital cured of what had ailed him(still unidentified)

I hear much conjecture as to the validity of the bible and its warnings and prophocies, from origin to translations and tampering of various sorts. and yet ....
I have heard of Jesus being refered to in your circles as a spiritual master of masters if not acknowleged as a divine being...would it then make sense to put stake in what he teaches yes but I belive you need the whole class to 'get it' as it were find me a better souce than the only book refered to as "The Word"

Consider also this, the origins and validity of the symbology, writings, teachings etc. that formulate the foundation of any of the pagan/neo-pagan/wiccan etc. belief systems. If validity of source material is to be questioned shouldn't all sides of the equasion be, If you think that the truth in that book is marred...wouldn't that be akin to ...calling the kettle black...

At any rate I find the use of symbology of varrious sorts in many places, most of which is overlooked. How many actualy know or can make an informed choice as to what they chose that symbol to mean. If we can do that then the language of those symbols is giberrish to all but those who share our point of view. Many of the symbols in day to day observation are representitive of powerful principalities, a language used primarily by a variety of so-called Divine beings. If the beings that originate a language or symbols are still in existance wouldn't then the language retain its meaning irregardless of how we decide to percieve them. perhaps they don't wish us to know the true value of Symbology.

"my thoughts and point of view, as you can see there are both questions and statements within you may wish to answer the questions before contradicting the statements

3:07 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

DC

Other examples of a christian cult are the Children of God
Waco Texas
Catholicism
lmao

M's X:

I personally don't take on the apparatus of patron saints

Like Christ Himself, she isn't a symbol of anything unless she is grounded in history. But then, I don't consider saints to be symbolic of anything, really. To me they are models of exemplary Christian life in shared Body of Christ.

I am hearing that christianity for you, is very much about the ideology. Nothing of the bible being 'real' or historic, more or less fancy imagery and idealism.
A way of lifestyle that you believe in very much and attempt to uphold to.

A) the story originated on the other side of the globe and thus couldn't influence the formation of doctrines about Jesus and B) is a mythic story whereas Jesus is historical.
And there is the rub: Jesus is historical. Jesus isn't a myth that happened in a time before time nor a myth appropriated by this evil sect of oppressors


Some Quotes for you:

The film reveals the discovery of a vast megalithic metropolis, 15,000 years old, reaching several levels below the Giza plateau.paul white

From Thoth and Osiris in Egypt to Quetzacoatl and Virococha in the Americas. Evidence now shows us that prior to the deluges great and high tech civilizations existed-paul white

THE COMMON LAW

TGS Historical Reprint Series

BY OLIVER WENDELL HOLMES, JR

I could go on and on about the various historical proofs and evidences there are here...Shall we start with the Summerian tablets, written circa 3500 BC

Some of the scientific knowledge found on these texts was originally thought to be fantasy and legend, dribbled down over the generation to mere myth in the retelling.
However, it is only now that we even begin to develop the technology to prove that their data is correct.
Zecharia Sitchin writes a phenomenal amount of information from there. There are other scholars as well.
Perhaps your bible is only developed off of Judaism, but there are some remarkable similarities.

The most interesting part of the tales of Virococha..is that they link themselves back to some pretty amazing stories of the Anunaki themselves...
A garden of eden...and two brothers...
The story of Adapa and Khawa or TI.TI
How about the story of Qayin/Hevel
Ziusudra
many more
http://www.zetatalk.com/theword/tword12p.htm
Zecharia Sitchin, has written a phenomenal amount about this in his texts...furthermore, he has even seen and translated the original Summerian texts...imagine.
As well as studied the bible in one of its more original hebrew versions. I believe he knows greek and latin as well, but could be mistaken

http://www.clivehicks.co.uk/greenman/history.html

As per the green man, wether or not he lived and walked as an actual man, is irrelevant.
An Ancient Pagan Ritual involved having a volunteer for the Green Man each Beltane.
This man was treated as a king, given women, food, gold, anything he desired all Summer Long.
When it became time for the harvest, This man was killed. It was thought he would carry the 'sins' of the people to the underworld and grant them protection throughout the coming months.
Funnily enough much of the historical evidence of this character happens to just barely pre-date the birth of christ.
For that matter, it has been historically accepted that Easter also overlaps (or sets its own concepts over) the beginning of Spring.
Oddly enough, in the pagan traditions, a time believed to be attributed to the re-birth of the Green Man, carrying in the masculine principal.
I am sure M can share the whole story with you.
In the particular Ritual I am referring to, It was also during this Ritual that the Green Man was 'crowned' or picked for that year.
Again, remembering that an important cycle of Life and Death was played out here.
Accordingly are the resurrection stories of Osiris...Egypt, (long before christ), Tammuz, Atti, Mythra, Adonis, The Corn King, etc, etc....
Going back to Virococha, another returning messiah...
Perhaps this being is the same entity as your Christ, appearing before a different peoples in a different age?
I will admit, it is long arduous and difficult to find the verifying evidence, but then again, the Spanish Christian were swift to burn the devil out of the mexicans, and are historically recorded to have destroyed most supporting documents and evidence
with regard to Virococha and Quetzalcoatl.
Hmm
And a great deal of other 'outlawed' Universal teachings as well....;).

As to the actual historical evidence to the living body of christ...
Has the body actually been found.
I will admit it has been a few months since I last researched, but most of the evidence Christianity is using as proof of their biblical history, actually prooves the other tales as well...
Furthermore, sediment testing, and soil samples from all over the earth have actually confirmed the Deluge, or Flood...
Whichever version you follow...
Scientifically, this may go a long way to the flash freezing of mammoths and sabretooths, while they were in the process of eating.
The Ark that they found, could just as easily have been Ziusudra's...
After En.Ki spoke to the wall of his house, and his collection of genetic compounds for life on earth, as it could have been Noah's with the actual live animals.

11:03 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

(which I think I addressed adequately by showing how they weren't oppressors when all this was being formulated).

Wrong.
I will admit YOU weren't the oppressor, and should not be punished for it.
however, the neo-christian movement of a loving and gentle christ, and a god who brings good will and love to all men, was formed long after the political scheming of the church played itself out.
Unfortunately, when I look to history from outside of the box of the church,
I still see the abuse and oppression of man.
What the Cult of Christianity, did not expect, was to convince their following so thoroughly of the naive cover of good will to all men, that the populace, or more importantly peasant culture, would walk away from that authority all together, and form their own, newer revoluntionized form of the religion

Hurrah to Neo-Christians everywhere.

Hey, you have your version I have mine...
I will agree to disagree there.

The problem with not going to the school and studying the indoctrination as closely as you, is I cannot elaborate on the 'official canon'
Nor can I quote the bible so efficiently.

The problem with going the route of school for church is that one's version of history is selectively narrowed to a single point of view.

I suggest looking into it a bit, broaden your horizon, and take a look at what the rest of the scientific world is up to.

You will see some amazing connotations.
Synchronicities.

11:16 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

ps...
The Point to the Green Man Ritual was that it was a willing sacrifice, who not only volunteered, but spent considerable time training for his role.
To be sacrificed for his people's survival

11:24 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

He was an actual human being living in Palestine 2000 years ago, and His immediate followers were absolutely convinced that He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Jewish Messianic expectations (Paul records a fully formed creed about Jesus' resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:1-9, recounting that he received it upon his conversion, which was within 2-5 years of Jesus' death... The resurrection wasn't a historical accumulation).

So was Marduk, to the Summerians, the Babylonian...oh wait, right even the Christians...according to the Bible.

Consider also this, the origins and validity of the symbology, writings, teachings etc. that formulate the foundation of any of the pagan/neo-pagan/wiccan etc. belief systems. If validity of source material is to be questioned shouldn't all sides of the equasion be, If you think that the truth in that book is marred...wouldn't that be akin to ...calling the kettle black...-fellow

It most certainly would. If I were to leave that finger solely on Christianity.
I don't buy into any major religious texts...as each in the end are written and interpretted by man.
Each are but pieces of the puzzle and reflections of deeper truths and mysteries then the one before.

11:48 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

layering our own symbolism over the church

funny thing that...

inside and outside and outside and inside...
one intrinsic to another...
Perhaps, you are correct then, in order to restore my truth from the layers of indoctrination and cannoniziation...I must use the very same words your truth used to smear them...unravelling and untwisting the difference in connotation, until they become but twisted ugly malformations to you...
Perhaps the connection to Christianity is the answer, and the examination of who layers who where helps to unravel the mystery

But as I noted in the debate over Mithras, the problem with ascribing such thievery is the quite blatant theological differences.

Perhaps one indoctrination theives from another, in order to further assist the assimilation of said other, into the 'new' and 'improved' indoctrination, whereby it enslaves it?
Hmmmm?

If one wants to make the argument that the Romans were crucifying people on womb-symbols, then I guess that's their progative.

Ahhh, well...perhaps, if that were the arguement.
;)But it is not.
The debate more precisely, was along the lines of Symbolism and Imagery,
And wether or not there could be more to the symbolism behind the christian 'mass' 'ritual' then what you have understood about it so far.
What amuses me about this stance is thus:
What the Mystic Marriage is really all about...and how the only thing it does to the Eucharist is give it more strength somehow, making it apliccable to all within this room in a way they can understand it.
A case in point of christian indoctrination of box-like thinking.
All I have ever been taught or shown is this.
If I stay here I will be in what I know.
If your church does not teach these things to you...does this mean they must be so false?

12:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahoy Neph,

I am hearing that christianity for you, is very much about the ideology.

Ideology grounded in experience and founded in history. You can't divorce any part of the equation. The ideology is not itself the point either. The point is to live in intimate, reconciled relationships with God and others and Creation. The ideology of human, social, economic and environmental justice develops through the attempt to accomplish this in the functioning of the world.

The film reveals the discovery of a vast megalithic metropolis, 15,000 years old, reaching several levels below the Giza plateau.

If you can source me that from a credible website or a journal article or a National Geographic or something, that would be great.

The most interesting part of the tales of Virococha..

And...? I don't at all discount the Campbellian notion of certain recurring mythic themes or of Jungian archetypes, since these would be grounded in common human experience. My objection in this debate about symbols was the attempt to appropriate very specific symbols in the Christian tradition that have very specific meanings and origins.

As per the green man, wether or not he lived and walked as an actual man, is irrelevant.

Whether or not Jesus lived as an actual man is relevant. Theological claims are based on historical claims.

This man was treated as a king, given women, food, gold, anything he desired all Summer Long.

Which certainly brings into sharper focus how truly god-like Jesus' lifelong struggle - leading to His brutal death under Roman capital punishment - was.

Funnily enough much of the historical evidence of this character happens to just barely pre-date the birth of christ.

Actually, according to the site you youreself referenced, the Green Man only appears as an architectural motif in the century preceeding Christ. There is no indication of an actual historical Green Man.

Upon looking at the site you referenced, it confirmed exactly what I suspected if indeed the Green Man fit into the mythological cycle of the sacrificed god, which is a representation of the seasonal cycle of death and rebirth. The death and resurrection of Jesus is not of this type, however. His death and resurrection fulfilled linear, apocalyptic Messianic prophecies of the victory of Good over evil. It has nothing at all to do with seasonal cycles. One can pull a C.S. Lewis and suggest that Christ is the historical fulfillment of the myth of the Sacrificed God, as I did last time, but that is kind of abstracting the meaning of both the Sacrificed God and the Messiah.

For that matter, it has been historically accepted that Easter also overlaps (or sets its own concepts over) the beginning of Spring.

No debate about that one. I have no particular argument with how we measure out when to place Easter based on the lunar calendar, but for the sake of accuracy, it wouldn't bother me if we replaced it to coincide with the Jewish Passover when it happened historically.

Perhaps this being is the same entity as your Christ, appearing before a different peoples in a different age?

I would again point to the serious theological difference between the cyclical Sacrificed God and the apocalyptic Messiah, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

with regard to Virococha and Quetzalcoatl.
Hmm


Nothing "hmmm" about it... They were rat bastards with a poorly developed sense of multiculturalism.

Furthermore, sediment testing, and soil samples from all over the earth have actually confirmed the Deluge, or Flood...

Frankly, I got bored debating Creationism and Flood Geology years ago, before I ever heard non-Christians trying to use it to prove something. To whit: there was no global flood. There was no ark. There is no evidence. Stories of global deluge may have certain historical roots in large localized floods (like the Black Sea) but they are myths, not history. Their meaning is to be found in the spiritual and theological truths of the stories and not in some kind of secret, scientifically unapproved history.

however, the neo-christian movement of a loving and gentle christ, and a god who brings good will and love to all men, was formed long after the political scheming of the church played itself out.

Yes, that's what the Romans were criticizing and persecuting Christians for. As I noted in that discussion, you actually can get a pretty good idea of what was going on by what our critics were complaining about. They were complaining about us being too egalitarian, about us being too low class, about us welcoming slaves and women and children and the aged. Our critics saw these things as weaknesses about us, worthy of verbal and physical attack. Your conspiracy theory simply doesn't bear out historically.

The problem with going the route of school for church is that one's version of history is selectively narrowed to a single point of view.

Yes, because the University of Calgary is well renowned as a hotbed of Christian fundamentalist indoctrination.

Another argument I find incredibly tedious, even moreso than Creationism, is that somehow one is better and smarter and more freely thinking for not having a post-secondary education at an acredited degree-granting institution... And to think, it used to be that people were worried about children becoming too liberal and freely-thinking by going off to college!

I mean, I certainly understand the pseudo-post-modernist iconoclastic backlash against formal education as a "filter" on information, but I personally have no use for it. I enjoy reading a wide range of books and taking courses of directed study on a wide range of topics. I find the "official history" of mainstream scholarship and the full breadth of the classics of literature, philosophy, theology and the arts to be far more interesting and fulfilling than whatever little potboilers promising to radically shatter the Western tradition that come down the line from the dime-a-dozen "geniuses" hyped up by their publishers. I absolutely will take university over a New Age bookstore and actual geology over Flood Geology any day, thankyouverymuch.

So was Marduk, to the Summerians, the Babylonian...oh wait, right even the Christians...according to the Bible.

Nah... Marduk was understood as being a deity. No doubt the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians believed in him, and believed that his mythic story played out in a real mythic time, but it is still a mythic story and not history.

And wether or not there could be more to the symbolism behind the christian 'mass' 'ritual' then what you have understood about it so far.

And with this we're just going around in circles, since I would once again assert that such things as the crux-shape of churches is based on the cross that Christ was murdered on which was a Roman form of capital punishment. You are certainly entitled to read whatever else onto it you want, but lets be clear about its roots and its development.

If your church does not teach these things to you...does this mean they must be so false?

I'm glad you clarified that the "mystic marriage" perspective gives it more strength, because I was hearing this supposed attribute of the Eucharist meaning that it was false.

As I said, you're welcome to read whatever you want onto it, but that's simply not the meaning it has for us.

8:30 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

neph, yikes.
has it occured to you that sitchin may have his own agenda? i have gotten really sick of the debate about evil xian oppresion. anyone, modern or present, can twist complex evidence to make it sound like anything they want to those without the ability or presence of mind to research the validity of that interpretation. i trust zecharia sitchin even less than the bible, if only because his books are so pulpy and sensationalized and i dont think a real scholar needs to do that. at least reading between the lines in the bible you can get some idea what may actually being expresed there. its a fascinating read, especially for anyone with a strong background in tarot or the language of metaphor. i have read all 4 gospels and am halfway through acts where it starts to say stuff like.
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right..." ... 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
thats all in chapter 10 if you want to look it up.
xian thinking systems built the world we know. everyone only knows what they are taught. it occurs to some of us to ask more questions, that is all. some of us still wind up asking the wrong questions though, and getting led down the garden path by following only those leads that support our own favorite bias.
the point is, and here i am getting into something that fellow was asking about, none of this can be proven by any of us until we do go learn greek and hebrew and ancient sumerian and see for ourselves. until then, its still just blind faith in whatever we prefer to believe.
i personally dont care if any of this is true at all in a concrete historic sense or whether the robot monsters in the matrix have just programmed us to think we remember things. the true language is written in the patterns of human thinking repeatedly expressed in different ways throughout "history". the human mind is gods computer, thats what i think, but i cant prove it either.
fellow, my dispute with the translations of the bible are not that it was done incorrectly or inconsistently. i am sure that every effort has been made to ensure accurate translation of the core message. i simply speculated that, by virtue of the complex multilayered connotations of each character in hebrew, and possibly greek too but i know more about hebrew (though admittedly, not much), the way the individual characters themselves are arranged means something beyond the phonetic word value they create. the gematria gives a numeric value to each letter as well, so that other things can be learned by calculating those values and applying the communicative associations of those values. this would be simply impossible to duplicate in an english translation. you may be scoffing that if there are such values they are coincidental and insignificant anyway, but if the bible is the actual word of god written through humans, it seems unwise to dismiss the idea that god may be clever enough to to create such a complex message as that. i dont personally know what the message IS, of course, and if i could read it im sure i would only see one layer of it, but all im saying is there is plenty about the bible that has not been taken into account, and i think it cannot be properly followed if it cannot be properly read.

8:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mandi, my Beloved, I revel in your mighty brain!

10:01 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

i said xian thinking systems built the world WE know. we live in a christeocentric culture, like it or not. none of us can escape that influence. the world would be a really different place right now if a different religion had gained power instead. the fact that i can see some value in that way of thinking is my acknowledgement of that influence which i have been surrounded by all my life. my choice to step away from that influence taught me a great many things i could not have otherwise learned, but now it is something very close to me, and if i believe in my own spiritual guidance, i must think that i was brought to this point in my own life for a reason.
if my ability to objectively and peacefully explore this part of myself, my upbringing, and world development is such a source of emotional discomfort to you that you feel you must become suddenly hypercritical and snarly, i can only suggest you ask yourself why it IS such an emotional issue.
"besides if you want to give christianity credit for building the world then you must give credit to the structures from christianity was created. named the mythic mystery cults that preceded it and the philosophers who hid their science in the fables of theology."
i do believe you commended me for my comments on corys first pluralism post where i point out precisely that. i appear to be offering an alternative viewpoint of whatever type is needed wherever i go.

12:03 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

the point is, and here i am getting into something that fellow was asking about, none of this can be proven by any of us until we do go learn greek and hebrew and ancient sumerian and see for ourselves. until then, its still just blind faith in whatever we prefer to believe.

Kindof this is my point as well...
I could collapse most of my prior posting into this statement...

M, Xian,
The things you are speaking off as you write to me in your rebuttal are actually opinion, without supporting fact...
IMO Sitchin is the Summerian equivalent of the King James Version of the bible, and just as good a starting base as any when sourcing other information.

Actually, DC, no I could not think of anyone on hand better then Sitchin at the time, primarily because a week ago, all of our websites on archealogy, ancient history, and their latest findings have been lost when our system crashed, else I would have posted a few more scientifically proven and verified points.

Xian-perhaps it was the wrong site, perhaps not...
Definetly the Green Man developed into a much more common symbol and accepted symbol much later in time, I believe a lot of the hype over this character came in around the middle ages.
This is not the point.
The point is there have been known archealogical finds that pre-date his symbolism to before the bible, and that certain rites involving the sacrificed god occured before this time as well.
You can pick at each example as often as you desire to.
Nonetheless, there is the very fact of a great deal many similarites between the various assorted religions and their different stories.
M, while not totally diagreeing on your take of Sitchin, and definetly in his later works, you can see him contradicting himself, showing that there is another agenda...nonetheless, you are still discrediting his work, and contradicting yourself on earlier postings that suggest not to do so.
Each lie begins with a truth somewhere, no matter where...
I find it amusing to point out to you that here...I am taking your own words, about being open to all things, seeing pieces from the puzzle everywhere, and you are jumping on that to stifle me into a more christian perspective.
While I do not deny Christianity has it's own versions of truth, and pieces of the puzzle, I have a very hard time with this attitude of I will accept this part of quasi-proven history, but I will throw out this part of proven archeaology, because it does not suit my paradigm.

Because you have not taken the time to research it, nor found the information itself does not devalidate it.
All over the world, evidences are being discovered. The scientific proof of things are out there.

It is the ignorance of people, who refuse to accept what is before them that keeps man trapped in the dark ages he is in.

Nothing "hmmm" about it... They were rat bastards with a poorly developed sense of multiculturalism.

So YOUR PERSONAL OPINION goes.
How can we truly know anything about them...THE CHRISTIANS DESTROYED ALL OF THE EVIDENCE because it did not fit into their paradigm.

And with this we're just going around in circles, since I would once again assert that such things as the crux-shape of churches is based on the cross that Christ was murdered on which was a Roman form of capital punishment. You are certainly entitled to read whatever else onto it you want, but lets be clear about its roots and its development.

In other words once again, you are choosing to keep your eyes closed to anything but your indoctrination, which is a most unfortunate perception your religion has fallen into that led to crucifying people for not seeing it that way.

is that somehow one is better and smarter and more freely thinking for not having a post-secondary education at an acredited degree-granting institution... And to think, it used to be that people were worried about children becoming too liberal and freely-thinking by going off to college!

I have post secondary education as well.
My Criticism is not how you present it at all.
My Criticism is that you have become indoctrined in a box, and it agitates you greatly to lift yourself out of it.
If you can not win the debate on the basis of your examples, and if your view point does not stand up to the weight of the science around it, your arguement descends into petty finger pointing, low barbs, or a "I am sick of debating about such things"

Ignorance truly is bliss...
Isn't it X?

Marduk was not a deity historically, although mythically he was raised into one.
He was an alien.

12:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

woot....aliens....

Good stuff M. I believe you are correct about coded numeric values in The Word...after all God spoke the universe into being...
The Bible does identify that the universe is built on 10 principalities(dimensions), 4 of which we percieve and 6 that remain hidden...I cant remember the specific passage but it is there,-old testament I believe.
It lends credence to the unity of science and religion:
"Religion without Science is Blind,
Science without Religion is Lost."
-Albert Einstien-

4:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am hearted that we are all intellegent, educated, and interseted in this topic.

I am disheartened that, as always, an agruement/debate is necessary.

DC

4:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you will find that most big industry is responsible for 90%of world ecological damage and I would estimate about 75% of industrial tycoons and propegators of industry are linked to the masonic tradition or driven by them at the very least...they are the ones that made this world dependent on oil after all.

If any that call themselves Christians are indeed responsible for such ecological dissaster.... it would be difficult to realy place blame in that department on any, since many of us may drive or take the bus or work in industrial fields of any variety....I think humans in general are all to blame to some extent...how many of us are part of the solution...

4:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He of Many Names,

neither was the death and resurrection of osiris in the egyptian myth cyclic, however cyclic parallels are made.

But for that matter, neither was Osiris’ death a means of overcoming sin and reconciling humanity to the Divine.

its hard to ignore the christian need to hide behind a well contructed lie to preserve
a fragile non cyclic belief structure which seems to be quite cowardly and a denial of truth.


Which is the cowardly denial of truth: the supposed lie or the supposedly fragile non-cyclic belief structure?

but lying and other unseemly behaviors matter little to those christians who believe in the doctrine of social homicide called sola fide

And how is it social homicide to suggest that one is not made part of a special in-crowd because of rituals they perform, works they do or dogmas they believe? Or that even being part of a special in-crowd isn't important?

and xian your anemic historical claims that an actual jesus christ son of god existed centers around the fictional bible writings and commentaries upon that work of fiction, only helps suppost the claim there is no historical jesus.

The relative wealth of material written about the historic figure of Jesus of Nazareth, regardless of whether or not He was God incarnate, within one generation of His lifetime is quite substantial from a scholarly perspective. We take for granted the existence of other major historical figures who have far fewer credentials than that. The denial of this evidence - let alone any of the other lines of evidence suggesting that a rabbi named Jesus lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, was purported to perform miracles and was killed by the Romans – comes, I submit, from a willful desire to want Jesus not to have existed than a credible and critical examination of the evidence.

Spiritual Truth Needs No Savior it stands on its own.
The value of the spiritualy meanings in the bible have value because they can be proven to benefit people through application not because some fictional character said so.


But it is foolish to believe that the supposed benefit such wishful and superstitious thinking has any real merit if one allows Jesus to A) be a total fabrication, and B) allows Him to stay dead. If He is a lie, then He makes a lie of the “spiritual truth” He is claimed to represent. And if He is allowed to stay dead, then He makes a failure of this “spiritual truth”. This is true regardless of whether you assent to Jesus as a sage philosopher, a wise moral guide, a great magician, ancient myth manifest in history, a bodhisattva, or the Messiah. And it is true because He forced the question by living the path of Goodness, Truth and Beauty (which is ultimately what we’re talking about, whatever words we use for it) with such uncompromising vitality that it demanded the only response that the systems of hierarchy and domination and illusion could give. If He stayed dead, then He becomes just one more example of how this sentimental silliness of “the Good, the True and the Beautiful” is crushed under the weight of power and dominion. If He never existed at all and one still wishes to remain sentimentally attached to whatever they feel He represents, then they are simply demonstrating their own incapacity to deal with the world as it really is by retreating into fantasy. They are only proving the axioms of people who insist that spirituality is for the weak.

The rub is that we know it not to be false. We have experienced the Goodness, Truth and Beauty of the Divine, and we know power and dominion to be a lie. And we can point to unsentimental verification of this in the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus… I am a Christian because in Jesus I find the mirror, validation, articulation and expansion of my own experience of God, and I see it more clearly in Him than I do anywhere else. I don’t just believe this shit because someone told me to.

this usage of this extended symbol only confirms the myth of the solar phallic mytery being repeated in the christian myth.

Which just requires of me the same response I’ve been giving.

i'm sure you will, as you have, retreat to some scriture to vilify the things you cannot accept and to also help you keep the slave shackles of self imposed christian ignorance to assuage your constructed christian personality.

This is starting to remind me of Ann Coulter’s complaining about how liberals lower the maturity of political discourse.

ps. the victim mentality which many christians attach themselves to is so tired and worn but it seems to be one they wear well on their sleeves as a validation of their faith.

As one of the same decadent children of the empire, I try not to play up the victim card for myself… Getting bitched at by issue-laden people on the internet doesn’t compare to the real persecution suffered by, for example, the early Church in Rome or modern-day Christians in China. For me, the example of the martyrs is more of a lesson than something I try to appropriate.

a short parable -

the bag man


It sounded better in Nietszche’s original German. His flair for the dramatic is more refined.

like how the faith of christianity with its promotion of salvation after death was partly responsible for the destruction of human concern for ecological stewardship.

The majority of that blame is more reasonably placed on Modernist secularism in the wake of the Black Death. The Mediaeval internalistic paradigm of intimacy with the Divine in an ordered universe came apart in the apparent chaos of plaque and social collapse, and was replaced with an externalistic paradigm of control over the universe. The Modern era can basically be understood as one giant exercise in manipulation and control of the cosmos, including control over individuals and the ideal of excellence (Renaissance), control over God and religious legalism (Reformation), control over society and the mechanisms of politics and economy (Enlightenment), and control over the natural world and the scientist’s objective gaze (Baroque). This application of this paradigm of control resulted in things like the Industrial Revolution and corporate consumer capitalism.

This sense of lost intimacy with the natural world is about as Christian as the chivalric code was. Which is to say, not very much.

In terms of theological approaches, I grant that Scripture doesn’t have a particularly well-developed environmental ethic. But then, no one at the time did, and there are many records of ancient civilizations environmentally fucking themselves over. One of the things that impresses me about Christ’s teachings, in this regard, is that it kind of becomes a non-issue. More than anything else, the major physical influence on the present ecological crisis is overconsumption and the necessary exploitation of resources to sustain it. If we were to actually follow Jesus’ teachings of voluntary simplicity by not investing ourselves in so much frickin’ stuff, we would go a heck of a long way to mitigating that problem.

I really dont like christianity, its a plague of infantile misguided theology used as a tool to throw down others, justify christian behavior to contol people,

As I have noted, it originally began – as was criticized for being – an infantile misguided theology used as a tool of dissent amongst the downtrodden, filling their minds full of treacherous notions of liberty. It was later subsumed into the power structures of the “world system”, and with the blessed separation of Church and State, we are able to see with greater clarity what Christianity is actually about.

and takes away the spiritual responsibility one has the themselves and those around them and puts it in the hands of some fictional super guy.

Christianity demands very intensive spiritual responsibility, awareness and intentionality. At least, it did when being a Christian was a matter of life and death.

if christianity was so all great it would have been more concerned with the cyclic nature of the earth and its environment.

If cyclic-oriented religions were so all great, they wouldn’t have invented such ignoble institutions as warfare, slavery, human sacrifice and private property. There’s enough blame to go around, no worries.

The issue is whether or not we can come together on this… Recognize and honor the cyclic nature of life while at the same time making progress in morals, and social and economic justice. Perhaps neither the circle nor the line are entirely sufficient.

christian belief in salvation in the afterlife in heaven and that linear progression had imdued the psyche of christian followers that environmental causes were irrelevant.

I don’t consider them irrelevant, nor do most Christians I know. Throughout history, this environmental awareness has waxed and waned, and it is largely impossible to state the Christian position on the matter (any more than the pagan or occultic or neo-pagan or new ageish).

For my part, I am deeply concerned about environmental issues and a rather good portion of my degree have been in studying environmental sustainability and management, green capitalism, alternative energy and so on. I agree completely that ignoring environmental issues in anticipation of the Second Coming is irresponsible and rather arrogant (thinking one has the nature and timing of the Second Coming exactly figured out, in contradiction to what we lied about this fictional Jesus guy having said). I will also add the insider’s theological critique that like the majority of American folk religion, this viewpoint is actually using the rhetoric of Christian eschatology to mask an entirely different and more insidious loyalty, which is to maintain American economic dominance.

But the real question for any of us is what we’re actually doing about it… What are we actually doing in real, tangible ways to heal the planet and pursue environmental sustainability? “Honoring the earth” in a generic sort of way while still driving your car to Safeway and sipping a Starbucks coffee from a Styrofoam cup while buying factory farm fresh meat and veggies puts one in the exact same place as the evil, earth-denying Christians. Only more pretentious. I’m not saying you do that or that you haven’t adjusted your lifestyle to cohere with your purported spirituality, but it is worth mentioning in a general sort of way. For myself, I can firmly and regrettably respond that I am fulfilling my obligations to mother earth like I am to my fellow human: not enough.

this view of the christians.

If you’re going to be using rhetoric like this, it’s more fun if you just say “the Christian”. It’s more effective at lumping us into one faceless bloc of objectified and external pure evil. Just look at how much fun people have had in the past with saying “the Jew” or “the Turk”.

christianity is the selfish spirituality, strictly limited to human selfish needs, completely disregarding the rest of nature and creation as an apparatus to test their faith.

Like you said that human, social and economic justice is not all there is, nor is environmental justice all there is.

i just wanted to show you the tip o the iceburg of what i am discoving about christianity that has triggered my vehement abhorrence for it as a whole.

It’s not really what you’re discovering about Christianity as much as how you’re choosing to interpret it based on the information you are accessing. Speaking as a Christian, I can say that what you consider to be Christian is not my experience.

christians are just misguided pawns of christianity.

And what is “Christianity” but the collective actions of Christians? (if indeed we ever do act collectively, but that’s another critique)

7:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Neph,

The point is there have been known archealogical finds that pre-date his symbolism to before the bible, and that certain rites involving the sacrificed god occured before this time as well.

Neither archaeological finds of architectural motifs nor preexistent mythologies demonstrate a historicity of an actual Green Man figure to which can be ascribed the story of Jesus of Nazareth.

So YOUR PERSONAL OPINION goes.
How can we truly know anything about them...THE CHRISTIANS DESTROYED ALL OF THE EVIDENCE because it did not fit into their paradigm.


I was calling the Conquistadors “rat bastards with a poorly developed sense of multiculturalism.” Breathe, step back, and stop trying to find reasons to be offended at me.

In other words once again, you are choosing to keep your eyes closed to anything but your indoctrination, which is a most unfortunate perception your religion has fallen into that led to crucifying people for not seeing it that way.

I wonder how many times that I have to repeat that I don’t myself, nor do many Christians, recognize this interpretation because it doesn’t resonate with us? You’re more than welcome to look at it whatever way you want, I guess, but you’re just getting pissed off and accusing me of indoctrination because I don’t happen to see it the same way because looking at it that way doesn’t mean anything to me.

My Criticism is not how you present it at all.
My Criticism is that you have become indoctrined in a box, and it agitates you greatly to lift yourself out of it.


This debate is actually bringing back to mind those couple years I did time as a believer in New Age stuff. You name it, I believed it: psychics, astrology, palmistry, tarot cards, UFOs, Bigfoot, Atlantis, ancient astronauts, Creationism, the Loch Ness Monster, aura photography, ghosts, the Illuminati, alchemy, vampires, Noah’s Ark, reflexology, lost civilizations, fairies, alternative medicine, demonology, perpetual motion machines, astral projection, secret Vatican conspiracies, Roswell and Area 51, Ogopogo… There wasn’t a thing in any of those books or any of those stands at the psychic conventions that I didn’t accept. Flip through James Randi’s An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural and you’ll find a full laundry list of everything I lent credence to.

I do understand the mindset of the whole thing. I believed any extraordinary thing simply on account of them being extraordinary, because I knew and felt that there was something more to the cosmos than the mundane, ordinary world. And if anyone didn’t agree with this stuff, how much more I was convinced! They were just blinded by the establishment, kept in ignorance by the powers that be, indoctrinated by the system and refusing to open their minds to the really real world. It was just proof of how deep the conspiracy ran, and it gratified me to know that I had an edge on the unadulterated truth, without the filters of the thought-police telling me what I was and wasn’t allowed to know.

My saving grace during this episode was that it was bourne out of intense curiousity about the world. I knew there was more to it than the apparently ordinary world, and I was intent on learning about it. This stuff wasn’t attached to a religious dogma, and so I didn’t feel that I had to defend anything by it or that I lost anything by losing it. Throughout the experience I remained a Christian, and it still kinda’ baffles me how I could have cohered so many different and contradictory claims. The truth was that I managed by not trying to make it cohere. I wasn’t thinking these things through nor engaged in much critical thinking at all about the claims being made. I was just a sponge, absorbing anything I was choosing to access.

Ironically, my devotion to pseudo-science led me right around to an interest in actual science. Motivated by insatiable curiousity, I started to investigate what the “official story” had to say. Not that I necessarily recognized it at the time, since, y’know, I was still sure I was one of the enlightened ones who knew the real way of things. But real science and coherent philosophy started seeping in here and there. Cracks started forming in all this New Age stuff as the contradiction in the many of claims – both between the ordinary and the extraordinary and within the extraordinary itself – started becoming more and more obvious. I simply could not believe in all this stuff, and the so-called ordinary world was turning out to be really frickin’ fascinating in its own right.

At that point, I swung into the extreme opposite and went through a very heavy and involved skeptical phase. I was practically a card-carrying member of CSICOP, read Skeptic magazine like my soul depended on it and was a disciple to James Randi. What I learned in that phase and during my tenure in university (which I entered into at the same time) was that getting information is good, but you also need a means to process that information. You need to make sense of all this information that is coming in, and there are a whole array of means to do that. Apply reason, logic, rigorous examination, open-minded assessment, ruthless honesty with oneself and one’s own motivations, the Scientific Method, philosophical integrity… the whole gamut of critical thinking skills. There's also "critical religiousity", the opposite of blind faith, which is to be informed, be contemplative and meditative, refine through experience and be rigorous in one's theology.

Really, critical thinking is what university teaches you. The idea that university is just a grand indoctrination centre is false. Sure the professors have their own biases, but those are easily apparent if they don’t acknowledge them off the bat. Throughout my studies, whenever an exam or a paper comes up, the thing I hear the most is “there is no right answer; it’s whether or not you can defend your answer.” Some profs may be egomaniacs who want regurgitation, but for most, what they reward is originality as long as it is well-reasoned, thorough and defensible. The only time you’re told anything akin to “the right answer” is when it is a simple fact (eg: what are the 4 principles of the Banff Heritage Tourism Strategy) or in a science class where you’re mostly studying the main theories. If there are legitimate alternative theories, those are certainly discussed as well. What science classes really look to implant is an understanding of the Scientific Method. What you’re learning in terms of regurgitatable factoids is the product of that.

As for the content, there is a heck of a wide range of stuff taught at university, as you should no doubt know. Environmental sustainability, alternative energy, alternative medicine, feminist and minority issues… A friend of mine recently took a whole course on the effects of religious belief and prayer in medical science. If there is some orthodoxy they’re supposedly indoctrinating us into, I’d like to see it.

Interestingly, as I was going through this vigorously skeptical phase, it still didn’t affect my core religiousity. Rather, it helped me fine tune it greatly by teaching me to apply rigorous critical thinking to my theology and to reduce my blind credulity. Don't just accept whatever someone says because they've got a big hat and lot's of bling: work it out! Think about it! Ask if it makes sense, if it's coherent and if it's true to the experience of the Divine. As you might have noticed, I’m not any more forgiving on testable exceptional claims made by my faith than I am of ones made by others. I’m not a Creationist, nor do I have time for Flood Geology. I’m unconvinced by the Shroud of Turin, weeping Madonnas, so-called faith healers, speaking in tongues, and other such things.

Some of these I’ve had far too much experience with. I’m sick of talking about Flood Geology, for instance, because when I was studying for a geology degree, I debated it a lot. I had too… That was also the unfortunate span where I ran in to a lot of Evangelicals who were absolutely convinced that Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel and Noah and his boat were actual history. Growing in my understanding of science and the discipline of geology in particular, I was increasingly convinced that the “orthodoxy” accounted for the evidence better than this sloppy, pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo did. Half a decade of that, and a decade of personal spiritual development later, and I just don’t care to debate the issue anymore. It doesn’t matter to me if someone wants to believe that George Bush fashioned the cosmos out of his snot a week ago if it floats their boat. But I won’t entertain it as a particularly worthwhile point of view either.

The further one applies this habit of critical thinking to an insatiable curiousity about the world, the bigger a foundation one builds from which to approach more and more information. Eventually, as in the case with Flood Geology, there are some things you filter out right away because you’ve just seen this stuff before, you know the core claims and arguments, and you recognize that it just isn’t credible enough to be worth your time. Every month there’s a list of popular books promising to shatter the foundations of Western civilization and liberate The Truth[tm] for the addlepated masses, written by people with no discernable credentials, hyped up by their publishers. There was a whole list of them last month and there will be a whole other list of them next month. It is unfortunate that in our obsession with making sure there are no external filters on what we’re allowed to learn, we’ve forgotten to apply internal filters to determine if there is any legitimacy in what we learn. Or to be more precise, we choose to remain ignorant of our filter of credulously accepting anything so long as it isn’t “ordinary”, “mainstream” or “Christian”. And if someone else does exercise a healthy internal filter, then we scream closed-minded indoctrination because our dogma doesn’t convince them.

I’ve evened out since then, and have to even out more now that Mandi is beginning to expose me to a more experiential understanding of New Ageish claims. Though you may accuse me of being a stupid, hypocritical, closed-minded, ignorant, indoctrinated Christian (yeah, I feel your respect for me showering through), my incredulity has tended to be more of a skeptical one than a theological one. If it can be demonstrated to me to be worth consideration, then I will worry about the theological implications. And I will endeavour to do so rigorously and critically. For the record, I do take Mandi seriously about what she says. I don't take getting dogmas screamed at me with a good peppering of personal insults seriously.

One of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned through this whole thing is that the “orthodox”, “mundane” “ordinary” story isn’t really all that orthodox, mundane or ordinary. The natural and social sciences are absolutely captivating… Like, holy shit, you’re digging up 60 million year-old ecosystems and 2000 year old civilizations! The development of ideas in philosophy, theology, politics and economics is not only fascinating, but absolutely essential to learn. It is intense to realize how much your thought has been influenced by Augustine, or be able to quote back to someone the argument they used which first appears in Machiavelli’s writings. The so-called ordinary world, when you start really integrating all this stuff, is an incredible and an important place.

Like, yeah, when I walked away from ancient astronauts, I walked towards humanity’s incredible philosophical and technical prowess. One could read a dimestore paperback by some no-name author promising to reveal the true roots of the Western society, or one could actually take it upon themselves to read Plato, Aristotle, the Bible, Augustine, Aquinas, Chaucer, Bacon, Descartes, Luther, Machiavelli, Hobbes, Locke, Shakespeare, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Thomas Jefferson and see how these ideas have actually formed our intellectual tradition (yes, those are all men… you can also read Sappho, Wollstonecraft, Julian of Norwich, Catharine of Siena, and the countless other women who have also informed this tradition). You can dally about with conspiracy theories about some Illuminati, or you can learn the processes of economics and geopolitics so that you know what the Hell you’re actually dealing with. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of this New Age stuff isn’t just consumeristic bread and circuses to keep the masses distracted from the real problems.

Anyways, now you actually know something about me, from which you can proceed to make more effectual accusations, petty finger pointing and low barbs. If this is ignorance, then indeed it is bliss.

8:01 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

good point fellow.
another point i would like to make is the distinction between the philosophy of christianity and the actions of the people who have bent that philosophy to their own ends. one could argue that there is a vast difference between many of those who call themselves christian and those who truly are. our ingrained negative reaction against christianity stems from living in a human culture full of lousy individuals who do rotten things, and we see how the christian influence has shaped these people, but we do not have for example an ingrained bias against atheists, though there are at least as many rotten atheists.
regardless of what you have decided to believe about christianity or christians, it nmay be advisable to separate your emotional response from the actual issue, for the sake of objective listening at least.
neph,
"nonetheless, you are still discrediting his work, and contradicting yourself on earlier postings that suggest not to do so."
what i said was, all interpretations are valid. that includes my own. i think sitchin is a quacky flake. even pure fiction contains real truth, but we have to acknowledge it as being still fiction. im not saying his stuff is entirely fabricated. i am saying i find myself distrustful of his method of presentation and choose to pay heed to that.
nobody is trying to squash you into thinking like a christian, i am trying to get everyone to quit being so prejudiced and just talk to each other!
fellow,
i read your mason story in a tract put out by chick publications, only the guy was a shriner and a concerned friend told him he had to burn his fez. in that story also, it was baphomet, not lucifer. i was kind of impressed that time actually, since baphomet is not really well known and lucifer is more the sort of thing you would expect to be in a tract, though baphomet looks like the boogy man devil.
i love apocryphal stories like that, like the kid who dropped acid and though he was an orange and had to be institutionalized to keep from peeling himself to death.
that doesnt mean i dont believe in cursed objects of course...

9:46 PM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

The relative wealth of material written about the historic figure of Jesus of Nazareth, regardless of whether or not He was God incarnate, within one generation of His lifetime is quite substantial from a scholarly perspective. We take for granted the existence of other major historical figures who have far fewer credentials than that. The denial of this evidence - let alone any of the other lines of evidence suggesting that a rabbi named Jesus lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, was purported to perform miracles and was killed by the Romans – comes, I submit, from a willful desire to want Jesus not to have existed than a credible and critical examination of the evidence.

Then what of the extensive recordings and writings of other such figures, i.e. allah, buddha, Marduk, Osiris, Virococha?
What differentiates the blind eye you turn from He of Many Names?


The issue is whether or not we can come together on this… Recognize and honor the cyclic nature of life while at the same time making progress in morals, and social and economic justice. Perhaps neither the circle nor the line are entirely sufficient.

i agree

"Neither archaeological finds of architectural motifs nor preexistent mythologies demonstrate a historicity of an actual Green Man figure to which can be ascribed the story of Jesus of Nazareth."

No, not per se. But there are a wide variety of cultural themes and motifs, that collectively examined reflect themselves with an amazing accuracy, although somewhat askewed, within the Christian indoctrination and teachings.

It is easy enough to pick apart, if you take it subject by subject, religion by religion...mythos by mythos, this is not difficult.
Christian science has had the last two thousand years to build 'rational' 'logical' 'reasonable' explanations for itself, and the various factions poised as truth.
I look more at a whole picture and synchronicities

Though you may accuse me of being a stupid, hypocritical, closed-minded, ignorant, indoctrinated Christian (yeah, I feel your respect for me showering through)

Actually, I accuse Christianity of the above. As a whole, the religion I do not respect.
Nor do I respect Wiccans, nor OtOers, nor Druids, nor any such nonesense.
I told you once already. I speak directly to my gods.
I am one *cheshire wink
I told you, you were right to call me on blaiming you for the evils of christianity, in much the same way as Enki was reduced to a serpent, Pan/The Horned Lord=Lucifer/the Devil, and Marduk to a raving diefic demon.
However, friend, in the reverse...
Nor can I allow your version of Christ to be claimed by all of christianity in general.
What I can and do accuse you of is being a "Neo-Christian"
A rebirth of the old ways of what a true christian is supposed to be about, glossed over and presented in new wrapping in much the same way "Neo-Pagans" have wrapped themselves, as well as the Light-workers, and a vast many other religions, struggling to find themselves amidst a respective paradigm that can no longer stand up to the weight of the science which encompasses it.
I like your thoughts, and idealisms.
I find it interesting how you can claim some parts of the bible historic, and others mythic.
I find it interesting that you still seem to have certain degrees you sway with...
in exclusion to others.

The vision and idealism of what it means to walk your talk and follow your god is quite beautiful, and I wish you well.

I am glad you have chosen it.
And you are free to stay within the context of that box for as long as you choose to.

And you are right when you say that it is not what you believe in, it is what you do with it that matters.

I think Xian, where we have confusion, is when you mix what your version of christianity with that of a much more generalized notion of christianity in general.

University, most definetly has given you a logical-thinking-left brained reaction to theosophy.
It taught you to debate and debate well.

University does offer foundations of knowledge to draw off of.

I am sorry you fell for all of this 'New Age Cash Grab Bling Bling' in your youth, it is an awful way to view society, just as awful as a typical Christian narrow-minded, pig headed vision, of it is this way because I say so, usual rhetoric responses, backed by years of learned, informed, and researched excuses. Which when challenged by anything other then 'accepted christian authors' is sneered at and just plain denied, even when in front of you....
What most intrigues me is the way the generalized christian does it not just with other religions, but the amazing battles that happen over just that one book, and what parts is each one blindly unaccepting.

I too am a skeptic.
I am a skeptic of everybody.
I have seen the bling bling, and am involved in the bling bling industry.
I don't 'buy into' God, nor do I 'buy into' gods.
I see and walk miracles each day.
I study synchronicities
I walk and talk with my God in person each day.
It is amazing that you continue to see me as some 'new age flake'
Seeing as to how I really don't buy into anyones paradigm...but instead live and walk in a world where the Saints, and the Angels walk quite literally beside me, assisting me and showing me steps to take, and ways to do.
I have spoken just as candidly to devils and demons.
Your made up books and stories, in fact, anyones made up books and stories are of little consequence to me.
They are guides to help them that cannot see....
And they are tools, and nothing more, towards your personal growth, wherever it is you may wish to go.

Nor friend, am I some new age conspiracy theorist.
The things I have faced and the battles I have fought have been very real to me.
And to the many others I was involved with.
I still have an entire filing cabinet full of the very real court documents.
All of this while I was out there campaigning, fighting, drawing support, in a fight for Social Justice and Human Rights Issues.
In a world where the Liberal Government was taking the money from all of the sick, weak, old, children and disabled...
to hire more government to make more red tape bs and sponser ship scandels.

While the very real people whose feet I massaged and backs I rubbed as I prayed over, were dying not because the medical know-how didn't exist, but because the Government robbed nurses of pay they had already paid

While we had a two week period where children could not learn because the Liberals would not allow the schools to buy new books nor adequately pay the teachers to teach them.

These are some of my Social Justice issues...

processes of economics and geopolitics...this being the arena I have fought so long and so hard in for so many years...and have had some failures, but many success....while you are studying it of course;) but I commend you none the less in your way of doing things...

On the side of cyclic environmental issues...I have handed out fliers, voted for wildlife protection, campaigned against wildlife destruction, and donate all of the time to organizations that do this...
Why Just two years ago I was excessively involved in a campaign run through the elementary school where we raised money to buy 900ft of the beautiful Mission park greenway its freedom to stay that way and not become stratas.
(I know that is not much but the children were awfully proud of themselves)
Hell we always make sure it is dolphin friendly tuna(tm)

Ya I would say I walk my talk too.

12:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Then what of the extensive recordings and writings of other such figures, i.e. allah, buddha, Marduk, Osiris, Virococha?
What differentiates the blind eye you turn from He of Many Names?


I have no dispute with the historicity of Buddha. He was a very wise and sage philosopher alongside Socrates, Aristotle, Confucious, and countless others.

Allah is just the name for God in Arabic. The Quran is purported to be the revelation of the angel Gabriel, in the name of God, to Muhammed. I have no dispute with a historic Muhammed, and I don't necessarily deny his vision either. As a Christian, I certainly question the merit of the Quran insofar as it seems to be a return to Hebrew Scriptures-style legalism and ritualism, but that's just me.

As for Marduk, Osiris, and Virococha, it would be foolish of me not to agree to the historicity of the myth. I just see convincing evidence that this mythology has any root in some kind of primordial historic event.

But there are a wide variety of cultural themes and motifs, that collectively examined reflect themselves with an amazing accuracy, although somewhat askewed, within the Christian indoctrination and teachings.

Then we're right back around to Jesus being myth incarnate in reality and the hope of all humanity.

I look more at a whole picture and synchronicities

Actually, I'm probably grossly misreading you, but it appears more like you're picking and choosing out whatever verifies your own religious dogma while dismissing those of everyone else (or at least Christians). There's a fine line between saying "can't you see you're all talking about the same thing?!" and "can't you see you're all talking about my thing?!"

I told you once already. I speak directly to my gods.
I am one *cheshire wink


Frankly, and this is just my opinion, but people make pretty lousy gods. Greek philosophers, back in the day, even criticized devotion to their gods on the basis that the gods didn't behave any better than people. If we are our own gods, then perhaps Lovecraft was closer to being right than any of the religions throughout history.

Nor can I allow your version of Christ to be claimed by all of christianity in general.
What I can and do accuse you of is being a "Neo-Christian"


In my experience of Christianity, I am not an exception, neither in the here and now nor historically. And I would hope that you can understand how insulting it is to be considered one, or that I am in some capacity alright (even as you insult me and call me indoctrinated and ignorant) in spite of the spirituality that has proven so fruitful for me.

Honestly, it seems to me that your opinion on the matter is grounded more in your own very negative personal experience with certain so-called Christians than in any careful or nuanced understanding of Christian history, theology or individuals. I totally agree that what you've gone through is totally fucked, but like, I don't know if it comforts you to blame what happened on Christianity as a whole rather than the specific individuals that did it to you or what, but holy shit, ease up.

I find it interesting how you can claim some parts of the bible historic, and others mythic.

Why? Some parts are mythic, some aren't. The Bible is a collection of texts written over a 1000 year period by upwards of 40 different authors across a wide spectrum of literary types. It includes mythology, history, poetry, philosophy, pastoral letters, and prophecies, to list the main types. It's an incredibly rich library and doesn't lend itself to having literalism or non-literalism imposed on it. Contextual interpretation is about the only reasonable method to get anything worthwhile out of it.

I find it interesting that you still seem to have certain degrees you sway with...
in exclusion to others.


Meaning?

I think Xian, where we have confusion, is when you mix what your version of christianity with that of a much more generalized notion of christianity in general.

I don't see the problem. I got my version of being a Christian from having been a Christian. Maybe it's your view of the "generalized notion" of Christianity that needs to be cracked open and greased with some nuance.

It is amazing that you continue to see me as some 'new age flake'
Seeing as to how I really don't buy into anyones paradigm...


Let's cut a deal: you can still call me an ignorant and closed-minded Christian if I can still call you a New Age flake. If you don't want to be lumped in with the flakey types or told you're okay in spite of the flakiness, then reciprocate. If it doesn't bother you because it just proves to you how ignorant and silly I am... Well, think about it.

11:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, keep up the pressure, you'll never knockout Christianity.
hehehe

1:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its just that christian leadership with all its power and ifluence over its followers has not done enough in my opinion.

Nor have Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Confuscians, Satanists... I would say Wiccans and occultists 'cept they don't have any leadership.

Frankly, no leaders have addressed the issue satisfactory because we're finally, after 10,000 years, coming to grips with the actual problem.

of course there is the christ's words about 'living simply' but it seems the message gets lost in the focus on different doctrines of the faith.

I agree.

but as you pointed out christians generally do not act collectively, except to a large degree in supporting right wing political parties that support some christians agendas of social control. I am not 'imagining' this.

I know it at least as well as you, if not moreso because I have to deal with those power structures all the time. However, there are also left wing and miscellaneously charitable Christian organizations that aren't sexy or savy enough to get the press.

I'm not entirely sure if you are implying that i wouldnt speak in the same way in person as opposed to an internet conversation, i can assure you that i would.

Oh, I wouldn't consider that persecution either.

...your perception of what is literal in the the bible and what is non-literal metaphor.
where is the line drawn between those? is it in 'what is plausable' and what isnt plausible gets relagated to some kinda metaphor with a 'deeper meaning'.


No, plausibility isn't a criteria. I can believe some pretty implausible things given sufficient reason. Like, for example, there having been this guy who was God and was killed but stopped being dead.

Determining what is what in Scripture is a whole discipline of literary criticism. In regards to the first 12 chapters of Genesis, these stories are of a mythic literary form. Even if we didn't have mountains of scientific evidence telling us how God actually did create the universe, they could still be understood to be mythological stories.

Sometimes, the differences are just obvious: the Psalms are not like the Chronicles are not like the Epistles. The Gospel according to John is different from the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, and when lumped in with the rest of John's writings and compared to mystical texts from outside the Bible, it's becomes clearer what the deal with him is. Exodus is a narrative while Leviticus is a lawbook.

So on and so forth.

The idea that all the Bible has to be literal history is a false imposition set upon Scripture, whether it comes from Fundamentalist Christians or from non-Christians. The roots of it are in the development of the Modern era, with its overemphasis on externality, objectivity, and legalism. That wasn't the total mindset of the people who wrote the books of Scripture, nor should we read Scripture (or try to discredit it) in that light. Certainly the ancients were no strangers to objectivity (Luke states flat out that he wrote his gospel and Acts to document history), but they weren't limited to that. It is one part of a whole world of understanding.

5:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Frankly, no leaders have addressed the issue satisfactory because we're finally, after 10,000 years, coming to grips with the actual problem."

Maybe the best solution is no leadership - at all. No burocracy at all. Maybe, without all the leaders, people will start thinking for themselves.

If you ask me, leaders are generally bad, over paid, and provide nothing akin to actual leadership.

The same goes for bosses who are, in a way, leaders.

"Look Marge, I found a lima bean that looks like the leader" (Homer Simpson).

Damn the lima beans. Full speed ahead!

3:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some thoughts on flood physics and geology: Genisis 1:6-8
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The waters above the firmament...a bio-sphere, a layer of water seperating earth from space protecting it from harmfull radiation and debris also creating a high presure atmosphere which allowed man at that time to live long years.
After the flood according to the geneology man's life span dropped drasticly. As well, without the liquid biosphere our ozone would only last so long...
just some thoughts.

There are a great many things...told us through the word that without the proper scientific background would be impossible to undersatand. like a world class Scientist trying to explain some basic phisics to a child, to write down...he would use metaphors so when the child grew up he/she wold understand what he wrote down so many years ago.
in this case I use child as a metaphor for the human race...
just thoughts...

7:33 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

fellow,
good point! i do not know anything about geology, but thats an interesting take. you should read the science of discworld by terry pratchett, jack stewart and ian cohen. it is sci fi AND hard science all at once! you would like it.
strixy,
unfortunately many people in the world dont WANT to think for themselves, to begin with, and even if they did most couldnt be trusted not to light themselves on fire or something.
what cory was referring to was the simple lack of united (wo)manpowerin the craft community. some of us might want to launch a worldwide effort to relieve poverty or whatever. while there are a great number of pagan based groups out there dedicated to this or that noble cause, the lack of any kind of central organization (which would require leadership lest it become an idiotic shit show) makes any large scale cooperative movement go a lot slower, at best, and usually not at all. contrast this to "organized religion" with efficient networks of communication and central leadership facillitate people coming together on a common goal.
individualism is well and good so long as you dont need to accomplish anything that requires more energy or ability than you personally have. as soon as you do, you need a group. being part of a group requires compromise. it also requires leadership, because people are messy and lazy and forgetful. you can rotate leaders to keep everyone happy and let them all have their turn, but you wont get much done without some kind of direction and someone to lead.
people can still think for themselves when they are being led. that much is a choice, and one that turns into an excuse all too often when we have a leader to blame for our own stupidity in blindly following (or blindly not). the question is whether you do anything worthwhile with your precious freedom of thought and choice, or just follow a pattern endlessly. whould you rather be guided by the future or the past?

9:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

M said, "unfortunately many people in the world dont WANT to think for themselves,"

I look at it as a difference of understanding the term "freedom".

If you look at it from a different perspective, they are actually thinking. Here's the deal. Freedom to some is the freedom to make choices. For others, it's the freedom from choices that they value.

For examples, I give you the age old debates of abortion, circumcision, and religion.

You'll notice that the arguments for and against each position are identical in structure and form.

Some are pro choice. Some are pro scriptures.

It's simply a difference of understanding what freedom is and both sides value their freedom - a lot.

I've noticed that those who value the freedom of choice are very responsible people. I've also noticed that those who value the freedom from choice place all responsibility in the hands of a creator force or a God(s). Example, many believe that Jesus died for thier sins.

Personally I will hold myself responsible for any bad choices that I might make. I'll die for my own sins thank you very much.

Fellow said, "There are a great many things...told us through the word that without the proper scientific background would be impossible to undersatand."

Be careful where you tread here, Fellow. I am one such individual who, among many things, has exactly the scientific background of which you speak. I am formally trained in physical geography from the U of Calgary, I am a hobbiest in the same field, and am a direct discentant (biologically) of the churches most hated scientist.

There was never a "liquid" biosphere between the land and sky. Geologic records of which I have not only studied but helped to record are very clear on this.

The only liquid biosphere that exists today or has ever existed on the earth is the sea and lakes. Of which my great grandfather, Charles Darwin, had theorized was the source of life on earth and all evolved out of that biosphere.

Where the church and science are concerned I give you Galelio. Who, in 1613, was tried on counts of heresy and imprisioned by the church, "We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo . . . have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world, and that it does not move from east to west... "

And I give you this, "...in 1992, three years after Galileo Galilei's namesake had been launched on its way to Jupiter, the Vatican formally and publicly cleared Galileo of any wrongdoing."

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that as a scientist, I would not lecture on religion, nor would I be lectured to about science from a minister.

I updated my stance on religion and science when I discovered that religion and science are not so far apart in the end. Both offer means and tools to try and understand the universe.

A noble pursuit, indeed.

So, Fellow, if you are intent on understanding the universe I am with you. If you insist, however, that a "childrens book" is the penultimate discourse on the matter, well... that is your choice.

And no, I'm not kidding about Darwin. He is my great grandfather.

9:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good points all strixy, however your exaple of Galileo's persicution at the hands of the church happened durring a time of inquisition and science was considered an alternate path of thinking. whereas the chuch would strike out against any who would attempt to de-mystify its power.
Interesting geneology you have there, and it explains a great deal of your position in the age old arguments of creatonism vs. evolution. you cannot however discredit a "childrens book" as it has already been proved to hold more truth than fiction by the scientific community. science has changed its point of view on many aspects of understanding the universe over the centuries as our technology and methodology have advanced. Look up the mathimatical probability of evolution, I think you will find that it is very close to the mathimatical equasion for improbability.
Obviously I cannot share your opinion that we evolved from single celled life forms, however discutions as this have great value to me as they cause me to strive for greater understanding of the universe through scientific study. My backgroud in science began when I was 8 and was given a book called -Our Universe- and continues with the self imposed study of a variety of texts from published scientists to school text books and semenars on advanced physics and advanced mathematics by world class mathemetitions and physisists albeit on audio tape.
I have personaly found that the greatest understanding on the subject has come when science and religion have suported each other.
a noble persuit indeed, hats off.

5:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fellow said, "Galileo's persicution at the hands of the church happened durring a time of inquisition and science was considered an alternate path of thinking."

This is why I like to bring it up.

"you cannot however discredit a "childrens book" as it has already been proved to hold more truth than fiction by the scientific community."

I disagree whole heartedly with that, from experience and with volumes of information to debate.

6:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You may wish to be carefull where you tread there...the science in the bible involves mostly history, geology, anthropology and archeology. are you sure you are not just dissagreeing with it because it spiritualy supports a way of thinking which you dont.

Ive debated with the best on this subject.
And btw I don't like what they did durring the inquisition or cruscades for that matter, what they did was almost unforgivable and even according to the book which you protest so vehemently those responsible will probably burn for it.
I have a question for ya...is light a particle or wave based energy??

4:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

".the science in the bible involves mostly history, geology, anthropology and archeology"

Ah, an interesting twist. Of course, there is a debate on the differences between social science & physical science. I'll grant you that they are both a science. Good twist, I like it.

I was expecting you to draw on conflicting research regarding Noahs Ark, the Shroud of Turin, etc... Which divolves, eventually, into the somewhat laughable Jesus was an Alien/time traveller/con artist arguments.

Good twist indeed. Especially in that your argument took such a positive direction.

As for light, I doubt there is a straight answer. Or, rather, the best answer I've read thus far is that it is a particle which displays properties of a wave form.

I'm currently fascinated by liquid light actually. Now there's an interesting twist.

6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

way cool answer..I spoke with a phisicist from UVic and he says light performs as both particle and wave depending on stimuli...and that it was nearly impossible to predict how it would perform...
have you ever heard of a reference to the subatomic particle called gluons??

7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oops ..that anonymous was me...

7:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

one of the best ways to make a good debate usefull for learning and expanding horizons is to find a common ground...when disscussions happen on frindly terms and not just throwing conflicting research at one another which realy gets nowhere fast...
liquid light eh...any source material I can read?
a pet project of mine is quantum phisical theory and mathematical equasions on the 5-6th dimensional curve

7:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Liquid light is brand spankin new. I use it in my sci-fi writing. Based on the fact that Einstein was semi-wrong - which is to say he was semi-right.

As for Gluons, they were in Scientific American two months ago, August Issue I believe, along with a wonderful map showing incidents of theorized particles - much how Pluto was discovered through theoretical orbit paterns long before anyone saw it with a telescope.

Subatomic thoery, however, was considered general course material when I studied chemistry (I changed to geography in 3rd year). I'm well read on the topic. I especially love Michio Kaku's works and can't wait to read the latest, Parallel Worlds. His science feeds my science fiction.

7:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I just wanted to point out that the number of comments is now at 60! wooHoo!

6:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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10:12 PM  

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