Saturday, November 19, 2005

The Advanced Class Down The Hall

Oh yeah?
I can see this is going to be a long day of writing for me. Where to begin?
"The emphasis of traditional paganism, in the vast majority of its forms across the globe, was to maintain the status quo. Recognize the cycles, keep them going, keep the tribe together and unified, keep the seasons going, keep the land fertile. Keep the king on his throne, the women in the kitchen, and the slaves in their hovels."
Uhuh.
"11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. 1 Tim.ch 2

1 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. " 1 Tim. Ch 6
Oh that zany St.Paul.
I bet this is what all those southern plantation owners quoted at each other so that they could breathe easy and go on to convert their African pagan slaves to the faith to save their souls and make them better workers.
I bet they were happier as pagans.
This is not a shot at my beloved priest, nor at the teachings of Jesus, which I, and many witches, revere as great wisdom. It is to show that from the first they were incompletely understood, and that even the earliest and most devout followers, nay, developers of the official Christian faith were not above warping it with their own biases.
I have read that Paul did not think of himself as "creating scripture" when he wrote his letters, that he did not imagine that those writings would become part of the fundamental doctrine of Christianity. I wonder if he would have been more careful, if he had known, to search his own heart to find the difference between the truth and the conditioning of the status quo of his own society, his own biases and attitudes that managed to carry through even such a revolutionary and transformative conversion experience as his was.
Would he? Or would he still say only "I've determined to know nothing among you but Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah and him crucified," and continue wrapping his interpretation of his messiah's teachings around the status quo he still maintained in his own mind, which he could not see because he placed his spirituality, his truth, outside himself.
Where is the personal development? What is the point? How can it be possible to be holy, to live a life which is truthful and whole, reconciled with God, ignoring ones own innermost experience of God? Dishonoring the divine within? We are to focus, if we look within at all, only on our hopelessly sinful natures, only on the negative. We are not to speak or to think of our own goodness, our own virtue. "Boast not of yourself, but of Christ"
We are to place all goodness, all virtue, all divinity on ONE man, one untouchable, perfect, fleshly being who lived once on the earth, who was the only human being ever worth anything, and the rest of us nothing but refuse to be consigned to the incinerator of hell if not for him, no matter what we do, how sincere and genuine our intent, our love for the divine or for each other. Ironically this is the same man who took all our sin, evil, and alienation upon himself so we would be free to experience God for ourselves. But we have to take it right back, reject the true gift of his salvation, and go back to wallowing in the consciousness of our evil and hopelessness.
Modern occultism’s emphasis on masculine/feminine duality is partly in recognition of the example we have been given of nature’s way of making magick, partly also a counter-statement to the duality of good/evil. Few things are ever so simple, and masculine/feminine duality is as much a childish oversimplification as good vs. evil.
I must remember that my priest has not the occult education to realize that when I speak in terms of masculine and feminine energies I am not necessarily speaking of male and female beings.
The masculine qualities are generally considered to be the linear, light, obvious, phallic, thrusting, penetrating dynamic forces of nature. Literal, rational, left brain, questing, hunting, conquering, ascending, outer, yang.
The feminine is considered to be the dark, cyclic, receptive, hidden, vaginal, surrendering forces. Intuitive, interpretive, right brain, creative, gathering, maintaining, descending, inner, yin.
Either of these energy forms can be used for good or ill, but are not inherently so in themselves. Neither of these are taken strictly literally, as it is recognized that male and female beings exhibit qualities commonly attributed to either gender in various different combinations. Two men or two women together can still enact the sacred drama of divine union by embodying those forces within themselves. Between positive and negative polarities all else is encompassed. They are two aspects of one thing. They can exist independently of each other, but each is still only half. When they join, something greater than the sum of its parts is created.
The point is that while they are recognized as different as night and day, one is not valued above the other. Though (alas) many of the feminine qualities I mention above have been villainized by conventional religious thinking. The insistence on associating evil with the feminine, via original sin, has been largely responsible not only for the retardation of the egalitarianism that could have emerged from the early Christian movement (perhaps if Paul had not been such a fucking misogynist, for example) but also the rejection of feminine sexuality which has caused repression, double standards and hypocrisy across the board.
Modern paganism revival, occultism, the new age movement, etc. are about reconciling the two estranged halves of the human psyche. A greater emphasis is placed on the sacred feminine because frankly women need a little something to counter centuries of being treated as chattel, getting told we are the devils gateway and being bullied and brainwashed into complicity with these attitudes. That shit really hurts, you know, and really has slowed down the development of humankind.
Absolutism denies all but itself, and represents only a tiny sliver of reality, a paper-thin layer of a multidimensional truth. Hows about some balance? Help others, but also help yourself. Love others, but also love yourself. Live in light, but do not fear the dark. Be rational and logical, but be prepared for that which defies logic. Honor God, and Goddess. Indulge when appropriate, abstain when appropriate. Have good sex at night, feed the hungry and clothe the naked by day. Why not? This is wholeness. Black and white are equal, but between them are infinite shades of grey, and all have their value, and none can be judged except in relation to the others.
All existence IS sacred, and by denying that we blind ourselves. All existence IS God, and therefore each of us is alienated from the divine only in our awareness. To deny the inner is to deny one half of the human relationship with God, and to deny that half is to make it no relationship at all, no matter who stands between to mediate.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1 Tim. Ch 4
So there.

19 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

So the point here is that the bible has been misused or misquoted or used and quoted properly?

In either case it was someones intent to serve the purposes of evil while using the tools of the righteous? Am I following you correctly?

If so, I would be happy to point out that the most plentiful and common tool of good are the congregational members of the church itself. They mean to do good but are often misled, misquoted or otherwise used.

This is one reason I don't attend any churches, medicine circles or yoga classes.

I do not wish to be used. I am not a tool, servant or slave. I have free will so that I will know right from wrong and in choosing to do right - know Him/Her/and Him and Her and Her and Him and It.

Whatever She/It/He may be.

Whenever I do good, I learn more about the nature of God, the Universal Prankster, Owl, the Anima Mundi, Kami, Karma or the Spirit of the Wanderer - whatever.

Whenever I do evil, I learn more about the nature of God, the Universal Prankster, Owl, the Anima Mundi, Kami, Karma or the Spirit of the Wanderer - whatever - only I learn it in contrast.

Let me return to the arguments of the Bible.

So many times have I heard the bible used to describe god as some parental figure with a gigantic spiritual wooden spoon that will give you a spiritual whollop on your kiester should you fail to obey him.

I have heard god referred to as a "vengeful" entity.

I have heard god described as any number of unplesant things.

I have always wondered if these were tools to provide people with the necessary means to act in like manner. "If god does it..." kind of logic.

I mentioned earlier that to do good is to know god and to do evil is to know god, only in contrast.

I think there is a lesson here, and in much the same way as you have pointed out, the bible has been used to teach that the contrast is actually god, and somewhere along the line some people out there are getting the wrong message and actually end up being used.

I give you the Qu'ran and the rabid misinterpretation of womens rights.

I give you Plato, Aristotle and Lee Harvey Oswald.

I give you J.D Salinger, Mark Twain, Animal Farm, 1984 and every book that has ever been banned.

I say those books have been just as misunderstood, misquoted and misused thoughout their existence as the Bible and the Qu'ran.

I propose that it is not the book or the message but the people.

The people are the power and the weakness, they are the disease and they are the cure.

It's not the bibles fault.

7:36 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

well in this case i wasnt getting at the bible so much as one contributor, and pointing out that the core ideas behind jesus's teachings were not always particularly well represented by some of his later followers. i made the example of paul for reasons i think are self evident, and do not neccessarily even lay the blame on the man himself. i only point out that he was speaking from a particular bias of his own, that was common to his time, but that this bias became an integral part of the way christianity was taught, and was carried on in the culture. i make this example because it is relevant to my earlier post. also because i am examining where a lot of my own ideas came from, the way i was raised and the ideas that were communicated to me that i disagreed with and now at last have enough knowledge of the subject to explore and fully understand. it was further an attempt to explain to the very special xian in my life where some of my feelings on this stuff are coming from. apologies to him if i disturb unduly.
i thoroughly agree with you that it is not the fault of the book, the system, or the path, but that of the readers, adherents and followers if things get screwed up. but people create the human world and i think we need to watch what we are doing. so i instigate discussions like these, less in the hopes of convincing anybody of anything, and more for the sake of clearly defining my own thoughts on these matters and challenging others, for the sake of consciousness itself, and higher learning.

10:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, so it seems we are on the same page (pardon the pun, I couldn't resist).

I am curious what the rest of this curious clique has to say on the topic.

12:33 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

me too!

8:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Me three!

8:56 AM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

Here here for me too

12:54 AM  
Blogger Nephilim said...

Xian

I have been away from the pc for a few days so forgive me for the carry over of commentary.

Look. I love you, truly I do....

You are a wonderful xian, with an open heart and mind. You have the courage to stand up for your conviction and the belief in your truth as it calls from your heart.

However, I must call a spade a spade.
You believe in a set of ideals, romanced and glossed over by the church you are involved in...
Not to say that is wrong mind you, as my ideals are romanced and glossed as well...

I think it is wonderful the 'new and improved christian vision' you have for the world.

I think it is wonderful to present these ideas as the 'reformed christian vision'

But to say the Church was based off of these ideals, woman's rights, freedom from slavery...

This is utter hypocracy.
Your church was not about reforming the world for a new and wonderful way...

It was built off of a political control agenda
Whereby ancient secrets, rituals, and rule were taken from those who had known and honored them for generations back, and hidden, twisted and tainted amongst the knowledge of an elite few.

If, and I do say if, for there have been many a great man of EVERY and ALL forms of religion who have stood up in the name of Freedom, and Justice, and Life...who were just as much and equally apart of those ideals.

If you wish us to acknowledge all of these great acts of the church in its attonement to man, and more importantly the Goddess, who is the very ground we walk upon, that has been defiled by this dominant and corrupted mindframe....
Then at least acknowledge the fall of the church in its past.

Claim that the "NEO-Christian" is about free will and love to all men.
Equality for woman and blacks alike.

Just don't preach to me about hypocrycies.
Why don't I walk up to a Native Brave and explain to him how white man really brought the Natives to a new and better way of being...
No Really Sir, we didn't give you the alcohol, we started Alcoholics Anonymous....
I mean, God damn.
Ya know?

2:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"[Christians] want and are able to convince only the foolish, dishonorable and stupid, and only slaves, women, and little children."

Those words were written in about 170 AD by the Roman critic Celcus in his anti-Christian screed True Doctrine. Other criticisms of early Christianity by those who "had known and honored" the "ancient secrets, rituals, and rule" for generations also saw as contemptuous Christianity's quite non-traditional appeal to the marginalized and disenfranchized classes... The very same classes we are accused of attempting to build a power structure to dominate. So what, then, is going on?

The best explanation I've ever heard for how to understand Paul came to me by way of secular Jewish professor. The gist of it was that Jesus' teachings were in fact far too radical for the world to be receptive to (much of the reason behind why they, y'know, murdered Him), and so Paul - purposely or otherwise - attempted to deradicalize the teachings in order to ease people into them.

Because it is 2000 years later and we're on the plus side of womens' lib, we forget exacty how radical Jesus' teachings were. We also forget how radical Paul's teachings were.

In regards to women, Jesus radically equalized marriage, divorce and adultery, insisting that the same rules apply to men as apply to women in a society where they most emphatically hadn't (Matt. 9:27-32 & 19:1-12; John 8:3-11). His first miracle was performed in apparent obedience to His mother (John 2:1-12), and it was for a woman that He broke the Sabbath and jumped off into a teaching about it (Luke 13:10-17). It was simply not done for a man to talk to a woman in public or private, yet Jesus did so frequently (Matt. 9:20-22; Luke 7:11-15 & 10:38-41). Not only that, but He also talked to women of alien and despised cultures (Matt. 15:21-28; John 4:5-30). Jesus also first revealled His resurrected self to women at a time when the testimony of women was considered inadmissible.

The inescapable conclusion one derives from Jesus' own teachings and actions is that "there is no male or female" (Gal. 4:28), a point - along with no slave or freeman, no Jew or Greek, basically no "us/them" dualisms - that Paul articulates.

Perhaps Paul did carry with him some latent Phariseeical misogyny. Or perhpas he recognized that you can't hit people with everything all at once, but have to work them through stages so that they can progress into a new awareness. Either way, he was still beheaded.

Paul follows through Jesus' reordering of marriage by talking about it in terms of mutual submission and tightening up the ideas of divorce and adultery (1 Cor. 7:1-16 & 11:11-12; Eph. 5:21-33). Paul also happens to laud women co-workers/deacons in the Church (Rom. 16:1-7; Acts 18:18-19; Philippians 4:2-3). There were women prophetesses (Acts 21:9), house church leaders (Philemon 1:2) and women were presumably present and prophecying at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-21). Paul implicitly approves of women prophecying during worship when he admonishes them not to do so without covering their heads (1 Cor. 11:5).

In terms of slavery, the same thing holds. There is no slave or freeman (Gal. 4:28; 1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 3:11), and the Apostles reorient it from a master-slave relationship to a relationship of mutual Christian brotherhood (Eph. 6:5-9; Philemon) that has inevitable consequences for the institution of slavery. Their rationale for this is evident: they were attempting to avoid an obvious and potentially violent insurrection by working with subtlety (1 Cor. 7:20-24; 1 Peter 2:13-23).

It is reasonably inferred that the apparent diminishment of women (which in 1st century terms was still more radically egalitarian than anything surrounding it) and maintaining the status of slaves (while radically reorienting the power relationship) was a concession to sensitive Jewish and pagan ears. Paul and the Epistles are a starting point, a door, a gateway, a concession, and point towards the inexorable fullness of the message.

To forget this point and divorce Christianity from its historical context is to fall into the error of making the Bible say whatever one wants it to say, which can lead to great and dire consequences. And doing so is not limited to those who would misuse Scripture for oppressive purposes, since our critics are also quite fond of reading whatever they want into the Bible by ignoring sizable chunks of it as suits their inclinations.

7:22 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

zing! that was a nice shot at the end my love! i myself almost ended that post with the shakespeare quote "the devil can cite scripture for his purpose" - referring to myself, of course.
i have often pointed out similar things, that certain of the teachings were deliberately veiled because the world was not ready to grasp them. hence the occult tradition of xianity, which jesus himself states when he tells the disciples why he speaks to the multitude in parables, but speaks plain in private to his chosen 12. perhaps the reason why they could perform excorcisms and healings? because jesus taught them who were ready and able to BE like him? the priestess's charge is to guard the veil, but also to draw it aside at the proper time(thats tarot). what else shall be revealed not previously understood by the congregations, by the multitude? i look very forward to finding out.

7:49 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

"i do beleive that promoting a 'role model' to follow is not entirely a bad thing if viewed positively, but when it comes at the expense at degrading oneself before the role model that value is dimished ...
...however i think that debilitating viewpoint is promoted by 'churchianity' rather than the scripture itself."

I agree with you there, and so, it would seem, does the bible.

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Matt. 5, 14-16

the difference between you and i, thou of many names, is that i accept the idea of the historical jesus, i just dont necessarily buy everything the church loaded on top of that. I accept the idea of a man who transcended the illusions of the flesh, realized his entire potential and taught others how to do the same. it reinforces my own beliefs rather nicely. read the gospels for yourself and you will see what i mean. theyre all fulla metaphysical and occult teachings and say so plainly. i have managed to make it through 2.5 of the 4 books of the gospel just this weekend and its really exciting stuff. crowley himself did no better at hiding his most mystic teachings in plain sight. whoda thunk that reading the bible would make me a better witch, or that my witchness could give me a better framework for understanding the bible?
even if he was a fictitious character, SOMEONE said that stuff, or could not have been written. maybe what was written was largely metaphorical (though no one even among the xians can seem to come to agreement about which parts are allegory and which parts are literal) but surely that need not stop those of us whose minds are trained to think that way, to discern the meaning behind the symbol and sift the truth from the dross, (as you and i together learned to long ago) from seeing and incorporating the wisdom that is available in these writings. Look to the tarot, does it matter if the particular figure on the card ever existed in history? or can we see behind the face of things to the truth that lies beyond, transcending the medium through which it is viewed?

And He said, "To you (disciples)it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'
Luke 8, 10

Can you see it?

2:06 PM  
Blogger idnami said...

wow, i totally missed nephs comments in all of that! and she is her delightful, outspoken self, as always.
what fascinates me about this whole dialogue is how all our traditions have been guilty of the crimes we have accused the others of, and how we claim the same virtues that we feel the others have desecrated.
when are we going to get that we are all talking about the same thing?
each of us have engaged in our own performative contradiction, choosing to see that which reinforced our previous ideas and ignoring that which did not. the bible contradicts itself endlessly. magick is fueled by paradox. duality is illusion, unity is illusion, illusion is illusion. take any damn thing literally and you are already missing the point. its all the same pile of crap and whats the point of arguing?
the christians freed the slaves - that they owned. argue one side to the exclusion of the other and there is the performative contradiction.
i say there is something to be said for recogition of duality.
i have said before that ones religious brand preferance does not automatically confer any virtue whatsoever, that if people do not make a point of continuing in learning, constantly searching ones heart for bias and rooting it out to make room for the truth, they are bound to fall into blind complacency and hypocritical thinking.
humans are evil because they invented alcohol and used it as a tool of control.
humans are good because they invented alcoholics anonymous and used it as a tool of healing.
pagans are evil because they used to perform ritual human sacrifice.
christians are evil because they tortured and burned heretics at the stake (also a form of ritual sacrifice and bearing both the power and the penalty owing to those who practice such, as has been seen)
christianity rose up in protest against the pagan status quo.
paganism rose up in protest against the christian status quo.
you guys, all this arguing is so retarded. the point is to live well, and to make our lives mean something. whether or not jesus was the unique incarnation of the living god or simply another in a line of many prophets and great ones, or a completely fabricated mythic hero makes fuck all difference to the validity of his teachings and what can be gained from them. The priesthood of amun held a level of power and corruption on par with the vatican, but this detracts nothing from the deeper meaning of the practices of either. there are the seeing, and there are the blind. there are those who would help the blind to see and those who would keep them in darkness for their own ends. there are the blind who wish to see and the ones who do not. which one will sight be granted to?
that too makes fuck all difference, what matters is what you DO with your Vision.

4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arguing is important, especially if it leads to an understanding of the thoughts you just expressed. I don't think I will ever claim any single religion as my religion. I think they all have something to offer.

When I filled out the marriage licence there was a box for religion. I filled that box in with, "All of the Above". It almost didn't fit so I had to write small.

5:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:17-19

The historicity of Jesus is absolutely essential to Christianity, as Christianity's theological claims develop from its historical claims.

Looking at Christ as a mythological symbol teaching eternal metaphysical truths regardless of His historicity is but one part of the total picture of Christ. The other part is that Jesus was the Messiah and Savior of the world working in real, linear, human history to bring about the Kingdom of God. As noted by C.S. Lewis: "The discrepancy between the depth, sincerity and, may I say, shrewdness of Christ's moral teaching and the rampant megalomania which must lie behind his theological teaching unless he is indeed God, has never been got over."

The Apostles couched any moral and spiritual teaching in the historicity of Christ, His death and His resurrection (take Peter's Pentecost sermon in Acts 2 or Paul's consistent preaching of "Christ crucified" in 1 Corinthians). As I touched off this post, Paul even admits that if these things are not historically true, then Christianity is utterly false. Jesus the good spiritual teacher can't be unwrapped from Jesus the Messiah because of this historicity, and if He failed as Messiah then to pursue His spiritual teachings is foolishness. How much more the pernicious lie if He never existed at all.

However, the point is moot since Jesus' existence is treated as a fact because it is a fact. There is enough written about Him from Christian, non-Christian and anti-Christian sources within the first century after His death to make Him one of the most reliably verified figures of antiquity. Even if we were only to permit non- and anti-Christian writings, we would still get the same outline of Jesus' life as a Rabbi and miracle worker in Palestine who was believed to be the Messiah, was killed under Pontius Pilate (an archaeologically verified figure) and whose followers believed Him to rise after death. If we allow Paul's writings to be legitimate as biographical of himself, then belief not only in the historicity of Christ but also a fully developed creed of His death and reurrection was handed to him within 2-5 years of Jesus' death (eg: 1 Cor. 15:1-9). The Synoptic Gospels, especially Luke's, are so partcular with establishing dates that they practically dare someone to discredit them, which no one in the first century bothered to do. The debate was not over the existence of Jesus, nut over His nature. I have already mentioned the imaginative stretch required to believe that Jesus was a fabrication cut whole cloth when all those in a position to have invented Him were executed for their belief.

The reason for the lack of writings by His own hand is theological: Jesus' self-conception was that of the Messiah establishing the New Covenant, rather than that of a spiritual teacher issuing a new law or rule. The New Covenant is a relationship, and Christ's acted out and verbal teachings were oriented towards the reconciliation of relationships between people and God and Creation. The idea of writing a new text to clarify the old text probably would not have occured to Him. The New Testament we have is a collection of pastoral letters and biographies meant for the utilitarian use of of the Church interspersed through the Empire. They were preserved and ultimately canonized because of their usefulness. They were never meant to be a new law.

Anyways, yeah, just some clarification.

7:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A bit more time, a bit more posting...

zing! that was a nice shot at the end my love! i myself almost ended that post with the shakespeare quote "the devil can cite scripture for his purpose" - referring to myself, of course.

That's interesting, my Beloved, since I wasn't actually directing the zinger at you ^_^

i have often pointed out similar things, that certain of the teachings were deliberately veiled because the world was not ready to grasp them.

The difference, though, is that what was "veiled" about Christianity was social revolution inherent to the teachings of Christ. And this was for the most part a matter of practicality, as pointed out in the Scriptures I cited. They "veiled" the fact that the Veil had been rent.

The emphasis of Christianity was about being open and inclusive (as evidenced not only by their own teachings, but by the criticisms levelled against them... You know you got it goin' on when your enemies say you're letting too many slaves and women in). After working out the Judaism question, the next big issue for the Church was Gnosticism: are the teachings of Christ some some kind of "hidden knowledge", a special enlightenment only offered to an inner circle?

They agreed, rightly in my opinion, that it was not. "Christianity is not a priviledged way into God's favor, but rather the priviledged understanding that God can have no attitude but favor." This doesn't mean there isn't a process of sanctification and developing more deeply in the teachings, but if there was any secrecy, it was only because the Romans were trying to burn us at the stake, feed us to lions, rape us by bulls, and crucify us.

perhaps the reason why they could perform excorcisms and healings? because jesus taught them who were ready and able to BE like him?

The role of miracles in Christian tradition is not that they exist unto themselves or as a demonstration of spiritual gnosis, but rather that they reveal the Kingdom of God. Whenever Jesus discussed the miracles He performed, it was in reference to Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures (eg: Isaiah 61 compared to Luke 4:17-21 and Matt. 11:2-5), and the empowerment of His followers was to continue the work of building the Kingdom. It is one sort of miracle to heal a single blind man, it is another to establish universal health care.

the priestess's charge is to guard the veil, but also to draw it aside at the proper time(thats tarot).

It is interesting that you use that metaphor, since one of the events said to occur when Christ died on the cross was the rending of the veil in the Temple. Whether or not it actually happened (I don't see any real reason why not), the symbolism is clear: this experience, the Kingdom of God, is open to all. It is not priviledged.

9:23 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

"The difference, though, is that what was "veiled" about Christianity was social revolution inherent to the teachings of Christ."
you often speak as though thats all the guy was about, but he had this huge mysticism too that you seem to insistently ignore. healing a leper with a touch is not social justice(though reaching out to touch him in the first place is), it is transformative magick. i will not say your interpretation of his teachings is not valid, but i will say it is not the only interpretation. unless you think that ALL the stuff he is said to have done was in fact metaphorical? walking on water and raising the dead, casting out demons and percieving the innermost thoughts of men? did he really do that stuff or is that all just allegory for something else? if the latter, he doesnt seem very godlike to me, and i must ask why each and everything is given to us in parable, though the man himself explains it. if the former, you bet your sweet ass there is an esoteric tradition within christianity available only to those capable of grasping it.
"The role of miracles in Christian tradition is not that they exist unto themselves or as a demonstration of spiritual gnosis, but rather that they reveal the Kingdom of God."
sure, whatever. it means the same thing, my love. i have never suggested that magick is some kind of special thing that only some can do. anyone can. the kingdom of god is here, now, if only you know how to see it.
"are the teachings of Christ some some kind of "hidden knowledge", a special enlightenment only offered to an inner circle?"

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
i dunno. sure looks that way to me.

4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you often speak as though thats all the guy was about, but he had this huge mysticism too that you seem to insistently ignore.

I don't ignore it. Actually I value infinite value on the mysticism of Christ. What I'm saying is that they are inseperable. Love is ultimately the mysticism of Christ because it is the identity of God, and that Love works itself out in the real world in reconciled relationships. Whenever you act in Love, you are acting out social justice. You can't say "here Jesus is being social justice and here Jesus is engaged in transformative magic". It's expressing the same mysticism of Love.

did he really do that stuff or is that all just allegory for something else?

I am swayed by the concept of the "true metaphor", being an event that actually happened but carried deeper and often intentional meaning. Christ did cast out demons and walk on water and all of that, but He did not do so arbitrarily, as I pointed out by comparing certain Gospel passages to Isaiah. He Himself said that He did not do miracles arbitrarily. He said His miracles had a purpose.

He did all that stuff and it was an allegory for something else. But even then, it wasn't an allegory for its own sake. The Kingdom of God is to heal the sick and feed the hungry and all of that. His concern for those who flocked around Him was absolutely genuine. What He was doing was both an expression of and an allegory for the higher principle He came to usher in.

sure, whatever. it means the same thing, my love. i have never suggested that magick is some kind of special thing that only some can do. anyone can. the kingdom of god is here, now, if only you know how to see it.

That's probably the latent cultural memory of the Gnostic controversy rearing its head. When one begins to speak of esoteric knowledge only available to inner circles, it starts to smack of elitism and exclusion, which is so often how it has been used. I appologise for the implication.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
i dunno. sure looks that way to me.


Another way of looking at it is that the Disciples routinely exhibit how they were a little thick, and perhaps required Jesus to spell it out for them (which is kind of funny in that throughout the Gospels, women routinely "get it" faster than men... Oh wait... shit...). At least they needed Him to spell out why He was spelling it out to them.

7:44 AM  
Blogger idnami said...

this does not seem to me to be what is indicated by "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." but i will let that one go. for now.
as to women getting it faster than men, hmmmmm. i am interested in your thoughts on the gospel of mary magdalene.
i am also curious about the passage in luke "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
i have looked up 4 different versions of this now, hoping to find a variation that maybe says "abandon", "scorn" or "reject" even, instead of "hate", since i can understand what is maybe meant by this passage, but not the immutable use of this word "hate". wheres the love?
similarly, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
how did he get to be prince of peace? yet again, the meaning of this is somewhat modified by things said shortly thereafter in the same chapter, but not made much better. hate and swords?
once i asked my grandmother to explain to me why everyone was supposed to fear god, if he was good and loving and our father and all that. she said that they really meant respect, or to stand in awe of. why not say that then? it says "fear" over and over, just like 4 separate translations of the bible said "hate".
thats the kind of thing that made me feel resentful, and not a little suspicious. turning the other cheek is kinda weird, but i can dig it. hate and swords and insistent use of phraseology that seems utterly at variance with the supposed core message of this book? something seems to be missing here. or am i missing it?

3:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this does not seem to me to be what is indicated by "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

Another reasonable argument is that the Disciples had the benefit of an actual relationship with Jesus whereas those listening to His parables didn't. He left them with these stories they had to work out and be transformed in the working out whereas the Disciples had Him directly there to nurture them.

i am interested in your thoughts on the gospel of mary magdalene.

I think I probably covered that in our live action conversation... Its interesting as a picture of some of the ideas flying around in the second and third centuries, but not particularly credible as a historical witness to Jesus of Nazareth.

hate and swords?

Those passages are functions of the nature of Jesus' life and ministry as the great provokation, stripping away the mitigations, excuses, ambiguities, vagueries and illusions. He laid bare the fundamental oppositional dualism (which, again, isn't really a dualism but a positive and the absense of it) of the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of the world, the Spiritual Principle and the Heirarchical Principle, the Church and the State... intimacy and alienation. He forces us to "choose this day whom you will serve".

The strength of His language is a function of this. He's trying to provoke people to really declare where their priorities and loyalties lie, and preparing them for the strife that would come against them when they do so.

once i asked my grandmother to explain to me why everyone was supposed to fear god, if he was good and loving and our father and all that. she said that they really meant respect, or to stand in awe of. why not say that then?

Our definition of "fear" is different from the intended meaning of the passages. When we think of fear, we think of "being afraid of", which is a state of alienation. When Scripture speaks of fearing God, what it is refering to is a kind of sublime, holy awe or dread. Edmund Burke defines it really well in his On the Sublime and the Beautiful:

"The passion caused by the great and the sublime in nature, when those causes operate most powerfully, is astonishment; and astonishment is that state of the soul, in which all its motions are suspended, with some degree of horror. In this case the mind is so entirely filled with its object, that it cannot entertain any other, nor by consequence reason on that object which employs it. Hence arises the great power of the sublime, that, far from being produced by them, it anticipates our reasonings, hurries us on by an irresistible force. Astonishment, as I have said, is the effect of the sublime in its highest degree; the inferior effects are admiration, reverence, and respect."

turning the other cheek is kinda weird, but i can dig it.

With non-violence, you're projecting the energy of peace outside yourself by how you choose to relate to others. You are acting rather than reacting, and thus influencing all around you.

This particular teaching is actually a strong social justice message having to do with class relations in the Roman world. Turning the other cheek was actually an act of defiance to the power structure on the side of human dignity.

11:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doggon hitting the wrong button at the wrong time. The above was me...

11:05 AM  

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